Colin White

[CRASHER]

I love that ! Like a traffic cone, hehehe. Plus minus is overrated. dont hang ur hat with that !

It depends on the team and how big the +/- differential IS

It's a tool, yes... but you need to base it on other things... and mostly watching the play...

the best way for me to think if a defender is doing his job you hardly notice him (offensive exploits excluded... then again some dope on the NHL Network said some Nashville dude was gonna win the Norris since he's on a 40-goal pace!?!?!? )

I'd be curious to the see +/- difference in Salvador with and without Martin personally

[MantaRay]

It depends on the team and how big the +/- differential IS

It's a tool, yes... but you need to base it on other things... and mostly watching the play...

the best way for me to think if a defender is doing his job you hardly notice him (offensive exploits excluded... then again some dope on the NHL Network said some Nashville dude was gonna win the Norris since he's on a 40-goal pace!?!?!? )

I'd be curious to the see +/- difference in Salvador with and without Martin personally

Valid points.

[Triumph]

White's done a fine job this year. People bitching about his penalties are ridiculous - almost all defensemen of his type take those kinds of penalties.

btw, Salvador has not been that great in the last 10 games, +/- aside. He's the one who committed the foul for the penalty shot, he fell down in the crease leading to the 2nd Islanders goal on Friday, etc. But since he's the new guy, he'll get a pass.

[Random Poster]

White's done a fine job this year. People bitching about his penalties are ridiculous - almost all defensemen of his type take those kinds of penalties.

You must be watching a different team. Make all the excuses you want for White, the simple fact of the matter is he's made costly mistakes, bad passes and bad decisions.

btw, Salvador has not been that great in the last 10 games, +/- aside. He's the one who committed the foul for the penalty shot, he fell down in the crease leading to the 2nd Islanders goal on Friday, etc. But since he's the new guy, he'll get a pass.

But White's gaff behind the net that led to the 2nd TB wasn't a stupid enough of a mistake to warrant mentioning, huh?

[Triumph]

you already mentioned it. if you want me to put it in my signature, i guess i have to.

white has made some costly mistakes and bad decisions. he's going to do that. for what he is, he is still a solid player. in hockey, as in all sports, the goal is not to not make mistakes, as this is absurd - the goal is to limit mistakes or to make fewer than the other team. so yes, white makes his share of mistakes, maybe even more than his share, but when compared to other crease-clearing type defenders of his ilk, he's a decent defender.

[Random Poster]

you already mentioned it. if you want me to put it in my signature, i guess i have to.

Good well thought out reply.

white has made some costly mistakes and bad decisions. he's going to do that. for what he is, he is still a solid player. in hockey, as in all sports, the goal is not to not make mistakes, as this is absurd - the goal is to limit mistakes or to make fewer than the other team. so yes, white makes his share of mistakes, maybe even more than his share, but when compared to other crease-clearing type defenders of his ilk, he's a decent defender.

He was a solid player. Unfortunetly too many Devils fans think this is 2003.

So skating the puck up ice and passing it into the back of players skates or right to the opposition is a sign of a solid player?

Failing to get the puck out of the zone time after time is a sign of a solid D man? Use the glass Colin.

Hauling a guy down or holding him becuase he's too slow, suffers from blurred vision is something a solid D man does?

Having your playoff opponent skate around you like you are standing still is a sign of a good D-man?

[Triumph]

He was a solid player. Unfortunetly too many Devils fans think this is 2003.

So skating the puck up ice and passing it into the back of players skates or right to the opposition is a sign of a solid player?

Failing to get the puck out of the zone time after time is a sign of a solid D man? Use the glass Colin.

Hauling a guy down or holding him becuase he's too slow, suffers from blurred vision is something a solid D man does?

Having your playoff opponent skate around you like you are standing still is a sign of a good D-man?

good well thought out reply. there's no evidence like anecdotal evidence!

[Random Poster]

good well thought out reply. there's no evidence like anecdotal evidence!

I guess after 14,000+ posts you should know, right?

Here's some evidence, watch the games.

[Devils731]

white has been fine this year. My eyes and the numbers back that view up for me.

[sundstrom]

White's done a fine job this year. People bitching about his penalties are ridiculous - almost all defensemen of his type take those kinds of penalties.

btw, Salvador has not been that great in the last 10 games, +/- aside. He's the one who committed the foul for the penalty shot, he fell down in the crease leading to the 2nd Islanders goal on Friday, etc. But since he's the new guy, he'll get a pass.

put me in the camp that thinks white is a low 4 high 5 defenseman at this point. he is what he is. i would love to swap him out but he's got a NMC so that's the end of the story.

regarding malone's take down in TB, it was pandolfo that tripped him, not salvador.

[Random Poster]

regarding malone's take down in TB, it was pandolfo that tripped him, not salvador.

Triumph, there's no evidence like anecdotal evidence, remember?

[Devils731]

Triumph, there's no evidence like anecdotal evidence, remember?

The point is there is nothing you can point to that says White is awful other than "I've seen it" which the counter-argument is "No, I saw different". It's circular and can't be proven either way.

Now the numbers suggest White has not been bad and his ice time has stayed steady suggesting Sutter isn't seeing the bad play you're seeing. All defenseman make mistakes every game but White's are harped on and reinforce what you already want to believe while other players are forgotten as no big deal.

[Random Poster]

The point is there is nothing you can point to that says White is awful other than "I've seen it" which the counter-argument is "No, I saw different". It's circular and can't be proven either way.

Funny, how opinions work like that.

Yet, people ignore the FACTS. His pases wind up in the backs of skates, beyond the reach of his teammates onto the opponents sticks (most of the time when he decides to move the puck through the neutral zone) and is inability to clear the puck out of the zone. That's not to mention his bad penalties and his lack of mobility that is more pronouned in the new NHL. Is it the eye? Maybe. But using that as an excuse would be to blame something that is out of his control other then he shouldn't be playing.

This isn't Colin White of 2001 or 2003. Hell, i'd take 2004 at this point.

Now the numbers suggest White has not been bad and his ice time has stayed steady suggesting Sutter isn't seeing the bad play you're seeing. All defenseman make mistakes every game but White's are harped on and reinforce what you already want to believe while other players are forgotten as no big deal.

White's are harped on because they are the most glaring. Don't you think people are harping becuase there's something there to harp about?

Who else can Sutter send out there right now? Jay Leach? Sutter has been known to give head scratching ice times to players that leave you puzzled, so i do not put much stock in White's other then Sutter's erractic bench management which leaves alot to be desired in some cases.

[Triumph]

Funny, how opinions work like that.

Yet, people ignore the FACTS. His pases wind up in the backs of skates, beyond the reach of his teammates onto the opponents sticks (most of the time when he decides to move the puck through the neutral zone) and is inability to clear the puck out of the zone. That's not to mention his bad penalties and his lack of mobility that is more pronouned in the new NHL. Is it the eye? Maybe. But using that as an excuse would be to blame something that is out of his control other then he shouldn't be playing.

This isn't Colin White of 2001 or 2003. Hell, i'd take 2004 at this point.

These aren't 'facts'. They're anecdotal evidence. They're the definition of anecdotal evidence.

Furthermore, the Colin White of 2001 was playing on the 3rd pairing (i.e. against worse players, in general), and if you've forgotten, received a ton of crap from Devils fans about his performance in the playoffs.

White's are harped on because they are the most glaring. Don't you think people are harping becuase there's something there to harp about?

Salmela has made much more glaring errors. His are overlooked because he hasn't been here as long and people like him. White's errors are harped on for the same reasons they've been harped on for 7 years - he's big and he doesn't score goals and he's not Scott Stevens and sometimes he will take bad penalties so he has to be terrible. Devils fans are convinced if a defensive defender isn't at least Ken Daneyko in his prime (who by the way, never took a stupid penalty or made a poor breakout pass), he should be booted for all the better guys out there.

Who else can Sutter send out there right now? Jay Leach? Sutter has been known to give head scratching ice times to players that leave you puzzled, so i do not put much stock in White's other then Sutter's erractic bench management which leaves alot to be desired in some cases.

Or the fact that I trust Colin White more than I do Mike Mottau or Anssi Salmela.

Edited November 24, 2008 by Triumph

[Random Poster]

These aren't 'facts'. They're anecdotal evidence. They're the definition of anecdotal evidence.

"white has made some costly mistakes and bad decisions."

That's your repsonse earlier in this thread. Now, it' s anecdotal that i point out what they are?

Do you watch the games? If you are calling those observations anecdotal, then you aren't.

Furthermore, the Colin White of 2001 was playing on the 3rd pairing (i.e. against worse players, in general), and if you've forgotten, received a ton of crap from Devils fans about his performance in the playoffs.

Which is where he belongs at this point in his career if he should remain on this team. Unfortunetly, since the Devils have no other option and Sutter is showing some sort of unknown faith in him, he won't be.

Yes, i remember and i thought at that time it was uncalled for, even though he wasn't playing well, but not bad enough to warrant the venom. If you take the 2008 White and put him in the 2001 Playoffs then you have something. Yeah, imagine this year's White on that team? He wouldn't be.

Salmela has made much more glaring errors. His are overlooked because he hasn't been here as long and people like him.

He's a rookie, making rookie mistakes. He's also an offensive defensemen which errors will happen. Combine the two and sure, he'll make errors. Salmela is making more tentative errors then errors due to his lack of skill and ability. He'll learn.

White's errors are harped on for the same reasons they've been harped on for 7 years - he's big and he doesn't score goals and he's not Scott Stevens and sometimes he will take bad penalties so he has to be terrible. Devils fans are convinced if a defensive defender isn't at least Ken Daneyko in his prime (who by the way, never took a stupid penalty or made a poor breakout pass), he should be booted for all the better guys out there.

White never grew into the punishing hitter and crease clearer the Devils invisioned, hence the comparisons.

Or the fact that I trust Colin White more than I do Mike Mottau or Anssi Salmela.

Salmela is an entirely different player, you can't compare the two.

Time to start understanding that Mottau has become a servicable NHL D-man. Problem is he'd be better served on a 3rd pairing along with White (hopefully he'll be gone before that happens).

Edited November 24, 2008 by SJP20

[sameblood]

At frustrating as he can be, I can't dislike him.

[Triumph]

"white has made some costly mistakes and bad decisions."

That's your repsonse earlier in this thread. Now, it' s anecdotal that i point out what they are?

Do you watch the games? If you are calling those observations anecdotal, then you aren't.

The reason they are anecdotal is because you aren't keeping any sort of record. So, yes, I am noticing the same things, but I notice the same things when other people do it. Since it seems you've wanted White off the team since 2005-06 (aka when Stevens left), seems like you'd notice them more than I would.

Which is where he belongs at this point in his career if he should remain on this team. Unfortunetly, since the Devils have no other option and Sutter is showing some sort of unknown faith in him, he won't be.

Yes, i remember and i thought at that time it was uncalled for, even though he wasn't playing well, but not bad enough to warrant the venom. If you take the 2008 White and put him in the 2001 Playoffs then you have something. Yeah, imagine this year's White on that team? He wouldn't be.

You're right, Sean O'Donnell in 2001 was much better than Colin White in 2008.

He's a rookie, making rookie mistakes. He's also an offensive defensemen which errors will happen. Combine the two and sure, he'll make errors. Salmela is making more tentative errors then errors due to his lack of skill and ability. He'll learn.

He makes wild positioning errors of the sort that sometimes cannot be corrected.

White never grew into the punishing hitter and crease clearer the Devils invisioned, hence the comparisons.

Sure he did. They just changed the rules on him so that that kind of play is de-emphasized. You really can't call White a bust. Truth is, you still need that guy who can hit people or move bodies - even the Red Wings have Lilja, Stuart, and Kronvall.

Salmela is an entirely different player, you can't compare the two.

Okay, well then stop trying to compare White to all the other Devils' D in terms of his ability to make breakout passes, etc. He should be compared to his counterparts across the league - McKee, Willie Mitchell, Henrik Tallinder, etc. In this light, he doesn't look great, but he's not great. He's gone from a passable #2 to around a #3 or #4 post-lockout and post-eye-injury.

Time to start understanding that Mottau has become a servicable NHL D-man. Problem is he'd be better served on a 3rd pairing along with White (hopefully he'll be gone before that happens).

If there's one lesson we all should've learned from last season, it's that White and Mottau can't be on a pairing with each other, period.

Edited November 24, 2008 by Triumph

[KC Devil]

....and a typical Colin White dumb play behind the net led to the 2nd TB goal.

How anyone with any brains can defend this guy's play, i don't know.

Ken,

Colin White's "dumb play", if you remember correctly, was a Brian Gionta error to begin with. White passed the puck to Gio, on his tape (holy sh!t......a good pass from this bum?). Gio then muffed the clearing attempt at the Blue Line, which the TB player was allowed to keep it in. Even then, White had to play the puck behind the net, where I thought the double teaming player made a nice play ( I don't know if White did not know he was there, or if there was no communication from his teammate, letting him know). This was not a typical "dumb play" by anybody. But, you see what you see. I see what I see.

For your information, I do have a brain. A pretty good one. College degreed. Master's degreed. Leave the personal attacks out. Make your point and move on. And....I see all the games. I am batting .1000 this year, and will see atleast 80 of the 82.

Mike Martin

KC Devil

[KC Devil]

"Who else can Sutter send out there right now? Jay Leach?" "stupid penalties"

I noticed White wearing the "A" the other night. I am sure that if Sutter had someone else to play there, then he would give the "A" to Oduya. or Salmela. or........ Maybe Sutter thinks White is okay. Usually, players that get to where the "A" or "C" are not quite at the bottom of the food chain.

16 PIM in 20 games. Can't be that many bad penalties. Hell, he is on pace for 65.6 penalty minutes in 82 games. That's just f...ing horrible.

Mike Martin

KC Devil

[Random Poster]

Ken,

Colin White's "dumb play", if you remember correctly, was a Brian Gionta error to begin with. White passed the puck to Gio, on his tape (holy sh!t......a good pass from this bum?). Gio then muffed the clearing attempt at the Blue Line, which the TB player was allowed to keep it in. Even then, White had to play the puck behind the net, where I thought the double teaming player made a nice play ( I don't know if White did not know he was there, or if there was no communication from his teammate, letting him know). This was not a typical "dumb play" by anybody. But, you see what you see. I see what I see.

You're absolutely right. It's a matter of who sees what. Differentiating opinions suck like that. I apologize to the White fans for not seeing it.

For your information, I do have a brain. A pretty good one. College degreed. Master's degreed. Leave the personal attacks out. Make your point and move on. And....I see all the games. I am batting .1000 this year, and will see atleast 80 of the 82.

Personal attacks? Where?

Mike, are you that thin skinned and sensitive that you take a generalization as a personal attack? It's not like i said "Mike Martin doesn't have a brain". Message boards take thick skin as they are chock full of sarcastic comments, generalizations, differentiating opinions and different personalities. I think you are out of line calling it a personal attack on you.

[Random Poster]

I noticed White wearing the "A" the other night. I am sure that if Sutter had someone else to play there, then he would give the "A" to Oduya. or Salmela. or........ Maybe Sutter thinks White is okay. Usually, players that get to where the "A" or "C" are not quite at the bottom of the food chain.

So you're saying the C & A's should go on the team's most effective players? Are you using that as a measuring stick of effectiveness?

White is a vet. Of course, he'll wear it over Oduya or Salmela. Besides after the C, the A's are window dressing. All vets are supposed to be leaders as that's who will most likely wear an A.

16 PIM in 20 games. Can't be that many bad penalties. Hell, he is on pace for 65.6 penalty minutes in 82 games. That's just f...ing horrible.

Sorry, i have no say in that. See, i was told "because you aren't keeping any sort of record" my opinions and observations are anecdotal.

[Devils731]

SP, you seem to have a very hard time on what anecdotal means. We can prove his PIM is low because that statistic exists and is definitive, we can not prove or disprove that he has taken an abundance of bad penalties because that is subjective.

It does make sense though to suggest that a player taking on average less than 1 penalty every 2 games is probably not taking many bad penalties because the player is not taking many penalties to begin with.

[Random Poster]

SP, you seem to have a very hard time on what anecdotal means. We can prove his PIM is low because that statistic exists and is definitive, we can not prove or disprove that he has taken an abundance of bad penalties because that is subjective.

It does make sense though to suggest that a player taking on average less than 1 penalty every 2 games is probably not taking many bad penalties because the player is not taking many penalties to begin with.

anecdotal:

1. also an

[CHICOEATS11]

Triumph -

You seem to discredit attacks on White's passing and offensive skills because he's just not that "type" of defenseman, and yet you then claim that people are just noticing White's mistakes in the defensive end more because he can't produce offensively. What are we allowed to criticize him for, then? If he can't do anything offensively, then he HAS to be great in our own zone, and he has to be held all the more accountable for his mistakes there. If a player is good with a few skill sets, if he starts to falter with one, he at least holds value by contributing through the others. When a 1-dimensional player like White is out of position and getting beat, he can't make up for it by doing anything else, so he fully deserves any criticism he gets for it.

You're completely right in saying that White's type of player has become devalued in the league since the lockout. However, White is far less skilled than other players in his mold, even in the things that he's "supposed" to be good at. While he throws some good hits, he also misses a lot. He's out of position a huge amount of the time, largely because he just isn't fast enough to keep up with anyone. And he doesn't seem to be better than anyone really at clearing the front of the net. And probably worst of all, he's just not a smart player. While White makes a lot of mistakes due to lack of skill (usually lack of speed), the majority are just due to a lack of a functional hockey brain. He looks lost in terms of coverage fairly often, people get away from him all the time. He makes stupid passes, and makes horrendous mistakes that just make it look like his head isn't in the game. He brings absolutely nothing to the table except the fact that he's been with the team a while, and is a liability almost every shift he's on the ice.

I personally have thought White has been useless even before the eye injury, but I thought then that he was at least young and would learn how to position himself better. But he's just gotten worse, and is more or less useless now.

[msweet]

White is a 4-5 defender in a a 2-3 role... kind of like how the rest of the defenders are bumped up. We can't do any better for the money so as I see it there's not much to talk about here.... not until we get a true #1... Imagine White-Mottau as our 3rd pair.... like we would have had in 2000 or 2003.

#1 Defender-Martin (#1=Lidstrom, Stevens, Niedermayer, Pronger)

Salvador-Oduya

White-Greene/Mottau

Me thinks we'd be happy with that defense including White!