Couturier or Huberdeau?

[brickwall30]

So the biggest divide among everyone seems to be in picking between these two. Obviously most of us would choose one of the top 3 if one slips to us at 4 but assuming that doesn't happen who do you take and why?

Personally I take huberdeau because while he is a riskier bet he has proven to be an impact player and continues to improve by leaps and bounds every game. Couturier to me is just not an appealing option because while he is a safe bet to turn into a Jordan Staal type, he really doesn't seem to have the high end of a learning curve based on his lack of dynamic improvement to his previous years in Junior

PLAYER COMPARISONS:

Couturier - Arnott or Jordan Staal

Huberdeau - Giroux or Backstrom

We already have 2 very good two-way centers. If we get another one with this pick it needs to be one with a high talent ceiling, and I think Huberdeau fits that bill.

RELAVENT ARTICLES: to say that Huberdeau is on a tear in the playoffs would be a VAST understatement!

Couturier:

http://en.lhjmq.qc.ca/roster/show/id/6942 (Stats UPDATED)

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=558864

http://thehockeywriters.com/the-next-ones-%E2%80%93-nhl-2011-draft-prospect-profile-%E2%80%93-sean-couturier-%E2%80%93-ten-tool-prospect/

http://www.coppernblue.com/2011/4/8/2097987/the-case-for-sean-couturier-at-1

Huberdeau:

http://en.lhjmq.qc.ca/roster/show/id/7483 (Stats UPDATED)

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=555797

http://thehockeywriters.com/the-next-ones-jonathan-huberdea/

Thoughts?

[elias2600]

Let me say that I think both are good choices, but i don't really agree with your logic for downplaying Couturier.

Statistics arent everything i know, but with a quick glance below we can see that Couturier has more impressive offensive numbers than Staal in junior. Again, +/i isn't everything, but those numbers are more impressive as well. Now I think Staal is a great player, but I think we do have to consider this gives us some reason to believe that Couturier could be better.

Staal

1st 2004-05 Peterborough OHL 66GP 9G 19A 28P +1

2nd 2005-06 Peterborough OHL 68GP 28G 40A 68P +16

Couturier

1st 2008-09 Drummondville QMJHL 58GP 9G 22A 31P +24

2nd 2009-10 Drummondville QMJHL 68GP 41G 55A 96P +62

3rd 2010-11 Drummondville QMJHL 58GP 36G 60A 96P +55 (same points in 10 less games, a pace of 113 points in 68GP)

It's not fair to say he had a lack of dynamic improvement when his previous season was already stellar, and he improved upon it this year with a 113 point pace. Like a lot of junior players, his big improvement season came in his second year. This can be seen with Huberdeau, as this is his second year in Junior. Just because these sophomore efforts have come in different seasons doesn't mean you should discount one for another.

Again, I think either would be an adequate haul at #4 overall, I just think it's important to look at the whole picture and evaluate from there.

[elias2600]

Here are other random notes about the players people should take into consideration:

Couturier is 6'4"

Huberdeau is 6'1"

Advantage: Couturier

Couturier born Dec 7 92

Huberdeau born Jun 4 93

Advantage: Huberdeau

-Couturier needs to improve his skating

-Huberdeau has gaudy stats, but plays on a completely stacked Saint John team that dominates everyone.

+Couturier is lauded for having a strong defensive understanding of the game

+Huberdeau is known for driving the net, and having strong stickhandling to get goals in and around the crease.

[stevestevens]

For me, I think the Devils have to be too high on Couturier to pass him up. I think his two way game is better and think he is more of a sure thing to hit his potential than Huberdeau.

Also, Elias 2600, at this point their birthdates don't really matter. The months between around projecting any difference in career length and etc. If anything, it just means Couturier had extra time to develop over Huberdeau (read the book Outlier by Gladwell, it has an entire section about the importance of birthdays in the nhl draft).

[caron14]

Huberdeau no doubt in my m'indigner sometimes couturier is too soft and huberdeau havé to improve is défensive game ... But you cant teach how to score and huberdeau is way better to find thé back of thé net then couturier.. fvcking Quick hand anyway both are good choice ... So im happy with both of them but i prefer huberdeau and i see those two in val d'or anne Rouyn

[iamtheprodigy]

@elias2600:

I know you're not trying to say that those stats prove definitively that Couturier will be better but you still need to be very careful trying to draw comparisons from that because they are from different leagues. The OHL is considered a stronger league than the QMJHL, so it's tough to say from those numbers if one is significantly better or worse than the other (as a junior).

Another very important thing that I don't think anybody has mentioned yet is that Huberdeau has not always been playing center in junior. According to Triumph in another thread, Hoober has been playing more left wing than center lately and that's not a very good sign for us. While he seems to be the better finisher and more dynamic offensive player, it's big red mark on him if he's going to be a LW in the NHL. If he can't handle being a center in junior, then there is little to no chance he will be a good center in the big leagues.

Couturier has a huge size advantage and knows how to play center well. He might be a half-step slower or not finish as well as Hoober has at the junior level, but given our current situation at LW, he has to be the one we take, if it comes down to these two.

Besides, if his "downside" is Jordan Staal... that's pretty freakin' good.

[ghdi]

Couturier is literally the star of his team along with Ondrej Palat who has been passed over for the draft twice now. There is nowhere near the same amount of talent on Drummondville that Huberdeau plays with.

Just for comparison purposes, Couturier plays with 0 NHL draftees. There are guys that may get drafted eventually, but when Couturier is drafted, he will be the one member of Drummondville to be picked unless Palat finally got in.

Huberdeau on the other hand plays with 7 guys currently drafted by NHL teams, including our own Eric Gelinas. After this year's draft, there will be double digit players on this squad already drafted. He also plays with likely top 10 pick this year, Nathan Beaulieu, and I believe theres 2 or 3 other guys on their team that will get drafted this year.

While Huberdeau absolutely has skill and deserves to be picked highly, this comparison alone leads me to believe that Huberdeau's stats are inflated. He plays with some of the best talent in the QMJHL. I think its also a two-way street, as he plays well with good talent and we definitely have good talent up front, but Couturier does so much with much less around him.

[ghdi]

Huberdeau no doubt in my m'indigner sometimes couturier is too soft and huberdeau havé to improve is défensive game ... But you cant teach how to score and huberdeau is way better to find thé back of thé net then couturier..

How do you assume this? Huberdeau has 43 goals on a stacked team. Couturier has 36 goals on a lesser team and both have 90+ points. Couturier is also bigger and from what Ive seen is not soft at all. Its a coin flip as to who puts it in the back of the net, both are very capable.

[caron14]

I have see them play... 3 Times huberdeau and he was dominant each Time.. 5 Time couturier and hé was good one Time ... Pretty good twice but i was not there twice.. These night he was soft and didnt do anything... But i havé to admit huberdeau have a much better team then couturier!

But couturier CAN play in every situation a thing that huberdeau cant do

[iamtheprodigy]

While Huberdeau absolutely has skill and deserves to be picked highly, this comparison alone leads me to believe that Huberdeau's stats are inflated. He plays with some of the best talent in the QMJHL. I think its also a two-way street, as he plays well with good talent and we definitely have good talent up front, but Couturier does so much with much less around him.

Now that I look at it more carefully, Couturier has actually played 9 fewer games than Huberdeau this year:

Huberdeau: GP: 67 G: 43 A: 62 P: 105

Couturier: GP: 58 G: 36 A: 60 P: 96

So if you project Couturier's numbers up to 67 GP, you get about 42G, 68A, and 110P... and that on a weaker team. Couturier clearly has the edge here. I'm now completely set on Couturier. The only really significant advantage that Hoober has statistically is that he's a bit younger. But who cares. Couturier is the better player.

[caron14]

So i still pick huberdeau but i Will be fine with couturier too..

[ghdi]

But who cares. Couturier is the better player.

I think this depends on how you measure better. Statistically, they're pretty much equal, but the talent level on each team cannot be denied and Couturier is clearly doing more with less. Huberdeau has some great intangibles. He's fast and his hands are incredible. Couturier's hands are no slouch though and Couturier will do everything on the ice, including fight if necessary. Couturier has also played a bit down when he's with better talent (i.e. at the Juniors recently), but I think that is also due to the not having been in that limelight before and not having the chance to adjust. His stock has only "fallen" because other guys have made strides and have different intangibles. I also think Couturier has no more room to grow in the league he plays in. This is his third year there and he matched his point total from last year playing less games.

When they're at their NHL peaks, I think Huberdeau will score more and be more exciting just because of the way he approaches the offensive game, but Couturier will be as valuable because of everything he does and will still score. Couturier could be a Jeff Carter, and Huberdeau Backstrom. Thats obviously a long way away, but those are the vibes I get watching them. I also think Huberdeau will be playing more wing in the NHL, whereas Couturier is a center and will stay there.

I think Couturier is the smarter pick, but if we were "stuck" with Huberdeau, I wouldnt complain. The only player we may have a shot at that Id take above them is Larsson, but that is more for need than anything else.

Edited April 16, 2011 by ghdi

[P-Way Chief 11]

I think this depends on how you measure better. Statistically, they're pretty much equal, but the talent level on each team cannot be denied and Couturier is clearly doing more with less. Huberdeau has some great intangibles. He's fast and his hands are incredible. Couturier's hands are no slouch though and Couturier will do everything on the ice, including fight if necessary. Couturier has also played a bit down when he's with better talent (i.e. at the Juniors recently), but I think that is also due to the not having been in that limelight before and not having the chance to adjust. His stock has only "fallen" because other guys have made strides and have different intangibles. I also think Couturier has no more room to grow in the league he plays in. This is his third year there and he matched his point total from last year playing less games.

When they're at their NHL peaks, I think Huberdeau will score more and be more exciting just because of the way he approaches the offensive game, but Couturier will be as valuable because of everything he does and will still score. Couturier could be a Jeff Carter, and Huberdeau Backstrom. Thats obviously a long way away, but those are the vibes I get watching them. I also think Huberdeau will be playing more wing in the NHL, whereas Couturier is a center and will stay there.

I think Couturier is the smarter pick, but if we were "stuck" with Huberdeau, I wouldnt complain. The only player we may have a shot at that Id take above them is Larsson, but that is more for need than anything else.

Agree - Huberdeau will probably transition to wing at the NHL level..and like many have said LW isnt a position of need..

[American_Psycho]

Because most points means you're better.

Edited April 16, 2011 by American_Psycho

[Jerzey]

I'm guessing that if they decide to draft Couturier, Henrique will move to RW as he did in the last game?

I'm assuming Zajac, Josefson, Henrique, and Couturier are all expected to be at least top 3 centers if not top 1 and 2.

We'll be pretty stacked at center.

[ghdi]

I'm guessing that if they decide to draft Couturier, Henrique will move to RW as he did in the last game?

Its too soon to guess that. Henrique played one game for a coach who isnt there next season. The Devils have him listed as a center on the roster.

[brickwall30]

I think it should be clarified cause it seems to be a source of a lot of confusion, Huberdeau plays RW on a line with Phillips and Galiev not LW. He was also playing LW at one point and center at one point. I think that is a plus personally as it shows his ability to play all positions which is something I think would be very useful for us especially since you never know where your needs are going to be in a few seasons (hence the BPA theory).

Also the other "knock" on Huberdeau seems to be that he is playing on too good a team . IIRC Taylor Hall was on the Spitfires who dominated the hell out of everyone and had a team that was IMO more stacked than this st.johns one (which is saying a lot), and he was still choosen first overall. In fact everyone thought our prospect from the Spitfires (Henrique) was going to be less of a scorer than he is because he had is stats boosted by playing on that team. One season in the AHL later and Henrique lead our farm team in goals and looks like he could translate well to the NHL next season.

Personally, as i'm sure everyone can tell, I am fully behind drafting Huberdeau because he is on a team that will constantly be pushing him to be better to out shine all the other talented players around him. Huberdeau has the skill set to become something truely impressive at the next level and I just don't see that same skill set in Couturier.

There is nothing wrong with a J. Staal/Arnott type player unless you took that player instead of a Giroux/Backstrom type player IMO. Huberdeau seems to be a very clutch player having already scored 10 goals (3 are GWG's and 2 are OT's) and 11 assists for 21 points in 9 playoff games. Thats 2.33 points per game and of the clutch veriety. Couturier has 11 points in 9 games this season.

[Devilsfan118]

Couturier.

I'm no prospect expert, but from what I've read and seen, he seems like the better overall player. Bigger, skilled natural center. That's essentially what the devils will need once elias retires / if zajac leaves as a FA.

Of course, if larsson somehow falls, take him and run.

[brickwall30]

Couturier.

I'm no prospect expert, but from what I've read and seen, he seems like the better overall player. Bigger, skilled natural center. That's essentially what the devils will need once elias retires / if zajac leaves as a FA.

Of course, if larsson somehow falls, take him and run.

lol you avatar may be my fav of all time! seriously I laugh every time I see it.

[brickwall30]

I thought I would make a quick hits comparison real quick for these two guys for everyone that hasn't seen or read that much about them. I am in the Huberdeau camp so it may be swayed toward him to some people, but I will try to be as impartial as possible:

Skating - Huberdeau

Goal Scoring - Huberdeau

Playmaking - Huberdeau

Size - Couturier

Puck Protection - Couturier

Hands (stick skills) - Huberdeau

Utility - Huberdeau

Faceoffs - Couturier

Defensive awareness - Couturier

Offensive instincts - Huberdeau

Leaning Curve - Huberdeau

Cycle play - Couturier

Off the Rush - Huberdeau

Toughness - Wash (Huberdeau has dropped the gloves more but that is a close one and neither throw the body around that much I would give this too Couturier because of his boards play but I already gave him cycling which is the same thing so ... wash)

I was tempted to also put in that Huberdeau is better with high talent, but I didn't want to put that in the quick hits because I can't definitively say that as it has only been a few tournaments (Ivan Halinka, World Juniors, CHL Top Prospects game, etc) where Couturier has flopped when placed with high talent teammates and Huberdeau has really only proven it with his Sea Dogs team, but I do happen to think (and it is echoed by most of the scouting reports out there) that Huberdeau IS the better player with better players around him so I think he would be a better fit with out top guns (ie Kovie, Zach etc)

Edited April 16, 2011 by brickwall30

[iamtheprodigy]

Because most points means you're better.

Nobody said this was the case in support of either player.

I think it should be clarified cause it seems to be a source of a lot of confusion, Huberdeau plays RW on a line with Phillips and Galiev not LW. He was also playing LW at one point and center at one point. I think that is a plus personally as it shows his ability to play all positions which is something I think would be very useful for us especially since you never know where your needs are going to be in a few seasons (hence the BPA theory).

If he was this great playmaking center that you are projecting him to be, he would be playing center all the time, not splitting time on the wings mostly. And most left-handed shooters become LWs at the NHL level, unless you're a tremendously talented shooter, which Hoober is not known as.

Also the other "knock" on Huberdeau seems to be that he is playing on too good a team . IIRC Taylor Hall was on the Spitfires who dominated the hell out of everyone and had a team that was IMO more stacked than this st.johns one (which is saying a lot), and he was still choosen first overall. In fact everyone thought our prospect from the Spitfires (Henrique) was going to be less of a scorer than he is because he had is stats boosted by playing on that team. One season in the AHL later and Henrique lead our farm team in goals and looks like he could translate well to the NHL next season.

It's not a "knock" on him, but it's something that needs to be considered when comparing stats. Your points about Hall and Henrique are really irrelevant. It's like you're trying to prove that every single player that's ever played on a stacked team has always panned out. That's just not the case.

Personally, as i'm sure everyone can tell, I am fully behind drafting Huberdeau because he is on a team that will constantly be pushing him to be better to out shine all the other talented players around him. Huberdeau has the skill set to become something truely impressive at the next level and I just don't see that same skill set in Couturier.

Why not? I don't see how you can say that Huberdeau's skill set or upside is significantly superior to Couturier's. Both have very similar offensive stats, so I don't see how Huberdeau can be made out to be this brilliant playmaker while Couturier is just some dumb, slow checking center. Both show good playmaking ability and decent finishing skills, as indicated by their totals of 40 goals and 60+ assists.

There is nothing wrong with a J. Staal/Arnott type player unless you took that player instead of a Giroux/Backstrom type player IMO.

Can we drop these arbitrary NHL star comparisons? You are suggesting we draft Huberdeau, not Giroux or Backstrom. Just as I am suggesting we draft Couturier, not Keith Primeau, Eric Lindros, etc.

Huberdeau seems to be a very clutch player having already scored 10 goals (3 are GWG's and 2 are OT's) and 11 assists for 21 points in 9 playoff games. Thats 2.33 points per game and of the clutch veriety. Couturier has 11 points in 9 games this season.

Saint John outscored Cape Breton 26-2 in 4 games in round one... everybody's stats are inflated from that series. Grabbing a bunch of points in 10-0 or 7-1 blowout games is not a demonstration of "clutch" scoring.

Also, your "quick hits" are completely pointless because aside from being obviously biased and based purely on opinion, they are comparing imbalanced elements. It doesn't make sense to compare these two head-to-head like that since one is a center and one is, essentially, a winger.

Edited April 16, 2011 by iamtheprodigy

[Jas0nMacIsaac]

I thought I would make a quick hits comparison real quick for these two guys for everyone that hasn't seen or read that much about them. I am in the Huberdeau camp so it may be swayed toward him to some people, but I will try to be as impartial as possible:

Skating - Huberdeau

Goal Scoring - Huberdeau

Playmaking - Huberdeau

Size - Couturier

Puck Protection - Couturier

Hands (stick skills) - Huberdeau

Utility - Huberdeau

Faceoffs - Couturier

Defensive awareness - Couturier

Offensive instincts - Huberdeau

Leaning Curve - Huberdeau

Cycle play - Couturier

Off the Rush - Huberdeau

Toughness - Wash (Huberdeau has dropped the gloves more but that is a close one and neither throw the body around that much I would give this too Couturier because of his boards play but I already gave him cycling which is the same thing so ... wash)

I was tempted to also put in that Huberdeau is better with high talent, but I didn't want to put that in the quick hits because I can't definitively say that as it has only been a few tournaments (Ivan Halinka, World Juniors, CHL Top Prospects game, etc) where Couturier has flopped when placed with high talent teammates and Huberdeau has really only proven it with his Sea Dogs team, but I do happen to think (and it is echoed by most of the scouting reports out there) that Huberdeau IS the better player with better players around him so I think he would be a better fit with out top guns (ie Kovie, Zach etc)

There is a very good chance Huberdeau will not play center at the next level. He barely takes faceoffs at the QMJHL level.

[Triumph]

and couturier is one of the best faceoff men in the Q and most of the guys better are also older. i don't even see it as a question. usually dynamic scorers aren't better players than guys who can play the game two-way. i would take the current version of zajac over the current version of kovalchuk for sure. the fact that couturier might have #1 center upside? yeah, i'll take that.

Edited April 16, 2011 by Triumph

[LucifersDog]

Why does it matter neither will play next season?

[ghdi]

Why does it matter neither will play next season?

How did you even come to this question in the context of discussing these two as potential draft picks?

Edited April 16, 2011 by ghdi