Would you trade Adam Larsson...

[SterioDesign]

Again, you focus on small instances instead of big picture. Pete trusts his veterans more, like most coaches do. He's not going to suddenly flip everything and play all rookies. It's going to be gradual. I pointed out the playing time. If you look at the last night, Severson played more than Sal, which is a good start. Merrill also got some of Sal's PK time. Now, I don't get Pete's problem with Larsson, but Sal's time is definitely changing.

Small? That whole thing has been an ongoing thing in every single way. Brodeur over schneider, salvador, a-train, tallinder,zids over fayne, larsson, gelinas. Gionta or janssen or peters or boulton or god knows over josefson and other guys like that. Thats the big picture, thats plain and simple his mentality. Zubs now on the first line, id rather have boucher for god sakes.

[CarpathianForest]

Bottom line: We don't have a shut down line and pretty much no shut down D so we might as well bench Gio, Sal and Tootoo and call up Matteau, Helgeson and Boucher because either way we're probably fvcked.

[Devil Dan 56]

Small? That whole thing has been an ongoing thing in every single way. Brodeur over schneider, salvador, a-train, tallinder,zids over fayne, larsson, gelinas. Gionta or janssen or peters or boulton or god knows over josefson and other guys like that. Thats the big picture, thats plain and simple his mentality. Zubs now on the first line, id rather have boucher for god sakes.

 

You have no patience. You want these huge sweeping changes, and that's not how it works. People said be patient with the Marty thing, and it worked out. Volchenkov got bought out, Tallinder got traded. Fayne was let go so Larsson could step up (Severson did instead), and Gelinas has shown he can't play defense yet. Peters and Boulton are long gone, Janssen is in the minors, replaced by Tootoo and Ruutu who can at least play hockey. Josefsen has yet to capitalize on his chances.

 

Sal will be gone this off season. Zids might be depending on Gelinas. 

 

Would you like to know who the only forwards who played LESS than Zubrus did tonight? Gionta and Tootoo. 

[CarpathianForest]

You have no patience. You want these huge sweeping changes, and that's not how it works. People said be patient with the Marty thing, and it worked out. Volchenkov got bought out, Tallinder got traded. Fayne was let go so Larsson could step up (Severson did instead), and Gelinas has shown he can't play defense yet. Peters and Boulton are long gone, Janssen is in the minors, replaced by Tootoo and Ruutu who can at least play hockey. Josefsen has yet to capitalize on his chances.

 

Sal will be gone this off season. Zids might be depending on Gelinas. 

 

Would you like to know who the only forwards who played LESS than Zubrus did tonight? Gionta and Tootoo. 

 

So you're saying the guy who sucks less got more minutes than the two guys that suck more. Brilliant!

I guess we'll be fine missing the playoffs again.

[Devil Dan 56]

So you're saying the guy who sucks less got more minutes than the two guys that suck more. Brilliant!

I guess we'll be fine missing the playoffs again.

 

Well, he was having a coronary about Zubrus, so I figured I'd point out that Zubrus may have started on the top line, but in the end he didn't play much. 

[SterioDesign]

You have no patience. You want these huge sweeping changes, and that's not how it works. People said be patient with the Marty thing, and it worked out. Volchenkov got bought out, Tallinder got traded. Fayne was let go so Larsson could step up (Severson did instead), and Gelinas has shown he can't play defense yet. Peters and Boulton are long gone, Janssen is in the minors, replaced by Tootoo and Ruutu who can at least play hockey. Josefsen has yet to capitalize on his chances.

 

Sal will be gone this off season. Zids might be depending on Gelinas. 

 

Would you like to know who the only forwards who played LESS than Zubrus did tonight? Gionta and Tootoo. 

 

I'm gonna be general here... Taking away stuff so you can't use them doesnt not equal you're doing good. Lock up a drug addict where he can't access drug and after 2 months been like.... "hey... buddy is doing great, he didnt use in 2 months" put drug right in his face and chances are that he's gonna dive in it.

 

So how is Pete not be able to play all those guys who are not here anymore showing anything good? It's not even the personal that is the problem it's his logic. he DID make some fvcking HORRIBLE decisions that DID bite us in the ass in the last few seasons. It's a recurring thing.

 

And you did not addressed once the whole "a vet can get away with murder vs a rookie will be sitting after one mistake". There is nowhere near an indication that's gonna chance. He was like that in Florida and we certainly saw the same thing

 

and the zubrus thing... yeah he may have dropped during the game. But why would you even PUT that guy on ANY top line? thats troubling

 

What are you even trying to debate here? Wouldnt you want a coach that makes immediate logic and good decision and can handle a roster correctly? You sound okay with having a coach that could gradually make progress and continue making bad decisions thinking "ohhh it's gonna get better with time" every pts counts as we know. No time for bullsh!t or take 40 games to give less ice time to a guy who CLEARLY doesnt belong where he does.

Edited October 22, 2014 by SterioDesign

[Devil Dan 56]

I'm gonna be general here... Taking away stuff so you can't use them doesnt not equal you're doing good. Lock up a drug addict where he can't access drug and after 2 months been like.... "hey... buddy is doing great, he didnt use in 2 months" put drug right in his face and chances are that he's gonna dive in it.

 

So how is Pete not be able to play all those guys who are not here anymore showing anything good? It's not even the personal that is the problem it's his logic. he DID make some fvcking HORRIBLE decisions that DID bite us in the ass in the last few seasons. It's a recurring thing.

 

And you did not addressed once the whole "a vet can get away with murder vs a rookie will be sitting after one mistake". There is nowhere near an indication that's gonna chance. He was like that in Florida and we certainly saw the same thing

 

and the zubrus thing... yeah he may have dropped during the game. But why would you even PUT that guy on ANY top line? thats troubling

 

What are you even trying to debate here? Wouldnt you want a coach that makes immediate logic and good decision and can handle a roster correctly? You sound okay with having a coach that could gradually make progress and continue making bad decisions thinking "ohhh it's gonna get better with time" every pts counts as we know. No time for bullsh!t or take 40 games to give less ice time to a guy who CLEARLY doesnt belong where he does.

 

90% of coaches have this veteran addiction.  So what's the solution to this "murder", then? Bench Zidlicky and play Gelinas for 23 minutes? Bench Salvador and put Larsson on the PK for 4 minutes a game? I'm curious... how would you distribute the minutes on defense? Shouldn't a rookie have to do more to earn a permanent spot?

 

Yeah, I wouldn't personally try Zubrus on that line, but Pete wanted to see if Zubrus would have some of the chemistry on that line that he had last year. It didn't work, so he tried something else. Anyone can come out the next day and pick apart every decision with 20/20 hindsight and ignore anything good. That's easy. Guys have radio shows based on it. 

 

I'm debating this idea that you can coach real people with an EA Sports mentality. You can't "just" say ok, now you get 12 minutes and you get 20. Why do you assume that you make "good decisions" and can "handle a roster correctly"? Of course I'm ok with having a coach make gradual progress. Progress is gradual. Veterans lose their spots as young players earn them, not the other way around. Knee-jerk reactionary coaching gets old fast in a locker room. You have to balance 23 personalities and egos over a 7 month period. 

[redruM]

Trade PDB!!

[William D'Aquila]

I would trade Larsson for Jason Demers and the Sharks 1st rounder.

Edited October 22, 2014 by William D'Aquila

[SterioDesign]

90% of coaches have this veteran addiction.  So what's the solution to this "murder", then? Bench Zidlicky and play Gelinas for 23 minutes? Bench Salvador and put Larsson on the PK for 4 minutes a game? I'm curious... how would you distribute the minutes on defense? Shouldn't a rookie have to do more to earn a permanent spot?

 

Yeah, I wouldn't personally try Zubrus on that line, but Pete wanted to see if Zubrus would have some of the chemistry on that line that he had last year. It didn't work, so he tried something else. Anyone can come out the next day and pick apart every decision with 20/20 hindsight and ignore anything good. That's easy. Guys have radio shows based on it. 

 

I'm debating this idea that you can coach real people with an EA Sports mentality. You can't "just" say ok, now you get 12 minutes and you get 20. Why do you assume that you make "good decisions" and can "handle a roster correctly"? Of course I'm ok with having a coach make gradual progress. Progress is gradual. Veterans lose their spots as young players earn them, not the other way around. Knee-jerk reactionary coaching gets old fast in a locker room. You have to balance 23 personalities and egos over a 7 month period. 

 

The solution to that murder? When a bad mistake happen. How about "giving a break" to a kid who's trying to learn and will learn from it. He made a mistake and he knows it, you don't have to sit him for 3 games for him to understand that. Those guys are our future and you want to give them all the support and the tools they need to be at their best.

 

You said it, in life those coaches are coaching real people not a video game player with no emotions and confidence and all that crap. 

 

A rookie making a mistake is understandable, he's still learning and will take everything in so that he doesn't do it again, he'll feel bad about it already. He knows he fvcked up and he'd likely would just like to go back at it and prove he learned and that he won't do it anymore. He needs to know the coach as his back and that he's willing to deal with those mistakes, it's a learning curve. Deboer's approach is basically to kick a guy when he's down, what's the consequences of that? Young guys are playing extremely stressed out to make one mistake cause they know damn well they'll pay for it, hard. Not only they are playing stressed but they got to be frustrated to see vets getting away with murder all the time for doing the same thing or worst. They are not EA games players. If you ever played sports in a team you should know that. Again, that's what we heard from Florida with Pete and its REALLY not as if we havent seen it.

 

Now a veteran that should know better that makes the same mistake and has no consequences whatsoever? How does that make any sense? I said it, he should know better. 

[Devil Dan 56]

The solution to that murder? When a bad mistake happen. How about "giving a break" to a kid who's trying to learn and will learn from it. He made a mistake and he knows it, you don't have to sit him for 3 games for him to understand that. Those guys are our future and you want to give them all the support and the tools they need to be at their best.

 

You said it, in life those coaches are coaching real people not a video game player with no emotions and confidence and all that crap. 

 

A rookie making a mistake is understandable, he's still learning and will take everything in so that he doesn't do it again, he'll feel bad about it already. He knows he fvcked up and he'd likely would just like to go back at it and prove he learned and that he won't do it anymore. He needs to know the coach as his back and that he's willing to deal with those mistakes, it's a learning curve. Deboer's approach is basically to kick a guy when he's down, what's the consequences of that? Young guys are playing extremely stressed out to make one mistake cause they know damn well they'll pay for it, hard. Not only they are playing stressed but they got to be frustrated to see vets getting away with murder all the time for doing the same thing or worst. They are not EA games players. If you ever played sports in a team you should know that. Again, that's what we heard from Florida with Pete and its REALLY not as if we havent seen it.

 

Now a veteran that should know better that makes the same mistake and has no consequences whatsoever? How does that make any sense? I said it, he should know better. 

 

 

I think you're blowing the whole rookie punishment thing out of proportion. The young players are getting playing time and have been. Like I said earlier, Larsson got 60 games his rookie year and only came out because he got hurt. Gelinas got 60 last year. Severson and Merrill are getting great minutes so far this year. Big picture, they are getting their chances. Some capitalize and some don't. Gelinas had 5 games of garbage before he sat this year. How much longer was he supposed to get?

 

We also don't know a lot of what is said. We don't know that Zids wasn't ripped to shreds in the locker room. Maybe he was. 

 

The vets have to be out there because the kids need to work their way up to the harder assignments. I've already pointed out that Salvador's playing time is going down the last couple of games because Merrill and Severson are taking more responsibility. It's a process. Sal and Zids have over a decade of NHL hockey each behind them, so it's easier for a coach to trust them against the other teams top guys until someone else proves they can do it. If we keep watching the minutes and who is playing against who, we should notice it continue to change. 

 

I'd also like to add that Greene hasn't been stellar this season, but he's getting a pass because we trust him to fix it. It's the same mentality a coach uses. 

Edited October 22, 2014 by Devil Dan 56

[SterioDesign]

I think you're blowing the whole rookie punishment thing out of proportion. The young players are getting playing time and have been. Like I said earlier, Larsson got 60 games his rookie year and only came out because he got hurt. Gelinas got 60 last year. Severson and Merrill are getting great minutes so far this year. Big picture, they are getting their chances. Some capitalize and some don't. Gelinas had 5 games of garbage before he sat this year. How much longer was he supposed to get?

 

We also don't know a lot of what is said. We don't know that Zids wasn't ripped to shreds in the locker room. Maybe he was. 

 

The vets have to be out there because the kids need to work their way up to the harder assignments. I've already pointed out that Salvador's playing time is going down the last couple of games because Merrill and Severson are taking more responsibility. It's a process. Sal and Zids have over a decade of NHL hockey each behind them, so it's easier for a coach to trust them against the other teams top guys until someone else proves they can do it. If we keep watching the minutes and who is playing against who, we should notice it continue to change. 

 

I'd also like to add that Greene hasn't been stellar this season, but he's getting a pass because we trust him to fix it. It's the same mentality a coach uses. 

 

i simply don't agree with you. What did Gionta EVER do or what career behind him in the NHL is backing him up to be Deboer's sweetheart ? 

 

Zubs like you said had a bad game and was dropped off the first line and then BOOM teaming up with another slow forward 4 on 4. How are you NOT adjusting pairing in OT knowing you have a slow pairing. 

[Mike Brown]

I would trade Larsson for Jason Demers and the Sharks 1st rounder.

 

Do we need more defensemen?  And no way we would get a 1st for Larsson.

[Devil Dan 56]

i simply don't agree with you. What did Gionta EVER do or what career behind him in the NHL is backing him up to be Deboer's sweetheart ? 

 

Zubs like you said had a bad game and was dropped off the first line and then BOOM teaming up with another slow forward 4 on 4. How are you NOT adjusting pairing in OT knowing you have a slow pairing. 

 

Yeah, that's the point... Gionta had the second least ice time of any forward last night. Doesn't sound like a sweetheart. 

 

And yes, Zubs and Clowe are slow. Zajac and Henrique had already had shifts in overtime, and the defensemen on the ice were Greene and Severson. I mean, sometimes these things happen. 

[William D'Aquila]

Do we need more defensemen?  And no way we would get a 1st for Larsson.

 

We do have you seen our pk?

[SterioDesign]

Yeah, that's the point... Gionta had the second least ice time of any forward last night. Doesn't sound like a sweetheart. 

 

And yes, Zubs and Clowe are slow. Zajac and Henrique had already had shifts in overtime, and the defensemen on the ice were Greene and Severson. I mean, sometimes these things happen. 

 

of course "sometimes" they happen. 

 

But dude are you still trying to argue that the favouritism that we're all seeing is not real? 

 

I mean there's "good" favouritism like Claude Julien trusting Bergeron late in game or Patrick Roy sending Matt Duchene for a penalty shot or something. The favouritism of players like Salvador, Gionta, Zubs etc is ridiculous and unjustified.

Edited October 22, 2014 by SterioDesign

[Devil Dan 56]

of course "sometimes" they happen. 

 

But dude are you still trying to argue that the favouritism that we're all seeing is not real? 

 

I mean there's "good" favouritism like Claude Julien trusting Bergeron late in game or Patrick Roy sending Matt Duchene for a penalty shot or something. The favouritism of players like Salvador, Gionta, Zubs etc is ridiculous and unjustified.

 

Read... Salvador's playing has been playing LESS. Merrill and Severson have been playing MORE.

 

Zubrus was the 3rd center out in overtime. 

 

The only forwards who play less than Gionta are Tootoo and Ruutu. 

 

None of that is favoritism. 

[Daniel]

At this point I would do the Larsson for Yakupov trade that people have mentioned in the past. Perhaps you also add a conditional second round pick if Yakupov goes back to Russia in the next two or three years if the rules allow for that. I believe Yakupov is not waiver eligible yet, so he could be sent to Albany to learn a more complete game until a forward spot opens up. You try to convince him that it's better for the long term, and that roster spots will open up next year. We need to get younger at forward, and Yakupov is the best upside player you can get.

Right now, Larsson's upside is besides the point. DeBoer clearly has little use for him, and we already have two young defensemen in Merrill and Severson that are both better than him, with Helgeson, Scarlett and perhaps Hrbanka as players that can do an adequate job filling in for an injury. Then you have Santini in a few years, and Jacobs after him (Jacobs will likely be given every chance to succeed since it's pretty clear that Lou and Conte think of him as a Severson type of steal).

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[BostonNala370]

I agree with you Larsson has little point to succeed with DeBoer as coach. So give Larsson a chance to succeed elsewhere and get something for before he leaves and we get nothing again. DeBoer must have pictures of Lou having sex in the men's room with some young boy to be able to make these terrible personal decisions before and during a game. The sooner he is gone the better. You can take all the posted comments about DeBoer in the past 2 years and they are the same after 6 games this season. Lou have some balls and build a team instead of collecting useless players and fire this coach.

At this point I would do the Larsson for Yakupov trade that people have mentioned in the past. Perhaps you also add a conditional second round pick if Yakupov goes back to Russia in the next two or three years if the rules allow for that. I believe Yakupov is not waiver eligible yet, so he could be sent to Albany to learn a more complete game until a forward spot opens up. You try to convince him that it's better for the long term, and that roster spots will open up next year. We need to get younger at forward, and Yakupov is the best upside player you can get.

Right now, Larsson's upside is besides the point. DeBoer clearly has little use for him, and we already have two young defensemen in Merrill and Severson that are both better than him, with Helgeson, Scarlett and perhaps Hrbanka as players that can do an adequate job filling in for an injury. Then you have Santini in a few years, and Jacobs after him (Jacobs will likely be given every chance to succeed since it's pretty clear that Lou and Conte think of him as a Severson type of steal).

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I agree with you Larsson has little chance to succeed with DeBoer as coach. So give Larsson a chance to succeed elsewhere and get something for him before he leaves and we get nothing again. DeBoer must have pictures of Lou having sex in the men's room with some young boy to be able to make these terrible personal decisions before and during a game. The sooner he is gone the better. You can take all the posted comments about DeBoer in the past 2 years and they are the same after 6 games this season. Lou have some balls and build a team instead of collecting useless players and fire this coach.

Edited October 22, 2014 by BostonNala370

[SterioDesign]

Read... Salvador's playing has been playing LESS. Merrill and Severson have been playing MORE.

 

Zubrus was the 3rd center out in overtime. 

 

The only forwards who play less than Gionta are Tootoo and Ruutu. 

 

None of that is favoritism. 

 

No you read. I'm saying this has been going on for like 3 years. Yet all you have is specific excuses for one game. 

[Devil Dan 56]

No you read. I'm saying this has been going on for like 3 years. Yet all you have is specific excuses for one game. 

 

Gionta was 10th in forward playing time on the Devils last season, 12th the year before. That's specific for the last 2 seasons.  In the same time, Zubrus went from 6th to 5th to 8th. 

 

Salvador got the 4th most minutes for defensemen in 2011-12 (behind Larsson, by the way) , went up to second in the lockout season, then 3rd last season. This year we are already seeing his playing time decrease. 

 

There are your 3 years of favoritism. 

[Daniel]

Gionta was 10th in forward playing time on the Devils last season, 12th the year before. That's specific for the last 2 seasons. In the same time, Zubrus went from 6th to 5th to 8th.

Salvador got the 4th most minutes for defensemen in 2011-12 (behind Larsson, by the way) , went up to second in the lockout season, then 3rd last season. This year we are already seeing his playing time decrease.

There are your 3 years of favoritism.

Hmm, what happened after 2011-2012... Salvador was named captain and got more playing time. And this was with someone like Fayne coming into his own, which would tend to decrease the playing time of the less talented players. This year, it might drop a little bit, but it'll plateau. While he may not be a "favorite" if you read DeBoer's quotes he's saying that Sal brings unique qualities. It's a bunch of bull, and he very well might be the odd man out if he didn't have that stupid letter.

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[Derlique]

Hmm, what happened after 2011-2012... Salvador was named captain and got more playing time. And this was with someone like Fayne coming into his own, which would tend to decrease the playing time of the less talented players. This year, it might drop a little bit, but it'll plateau. While he may not be a "favorite" if you read DeBoer's quotes he's saying that Sal brings unique qualities. It's a bunch of bull, and he very well might be the odd man out if he didn't have that stupid letter.

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Yeah, I mean, what do you expect DeBoer to say about Salvador? He isn't going to throw anyone under the bus, especially a respected veteran like Salvador. Problem is, who is going to take some of his PK minutes? I guess you could try to groom Larsson, or give Merrill more time as he's done a fantastic job limiting shots on the PK

[Devil Dan 56]

Hmm, what happened after 2011-2012... Salvador was named captain and got more playing time. And this was with someone like Fayne coming into his own, which would tend to decrease the playing time of the less talented players. This year, it might drop a little bit, but it'll plateau. While he may not be a "favorite" if you read DeBoer's quotes he's saying that Sal brings unique qualities. It's a bunch of bull, and he very well might be the odd man out if he didn't have that stupid letter.

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Tallinder also fell out of favor in 2013 after the blood clot and injuries. And Larsson saw a drop in playing time when the coaches lost some confidence in him.

[Daniel]

Yeah, I mean, what do you expect DeBoer to say about Salvador? He isn't going to throw anyone under the bus, especially a respected veteran like Salvador. Problem is, who is going to take some of his PK minutes? I guess you could try to groom Larsson, or give Merrill more time as he's done a fantastic job limiting shots on the PK

I don't know the nuts and bolts of what makes a defenseman a good penalty killer. I would guess though that, so long as you don't have a fear of blocking shots and are strong enough to clear people from the crease, it's a skill set that can be taught to a talented player, and in a relatively short period of time.

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