Scott Niedermayer

[Jerrydevil]

I think it's wrong, too, to say that Niedermayer hasn't done anything since 1995, but I think it's OK to say that Niedermayer has been a disappointment and I think it's OK to hold Niedermayer to a higher standard than other guys.

Maybe it's arguable, but I think the guy has world-class ability but is an above-average player. To me, above-average isn't good enough when you have all that talent.

MaddDog, I agree that not everyone gives it all they have every night and that it's nearly impossible because players are human.

But the criticism of Niedermayer is not based on one game, one week or even one season. He's earned his reputation as an underachiever over a long career.

No doubt, he's good enough to play in this league by a large margin, but I'm left wanting more. Too bad Scott Niedermayer doesn't want more. Maybe he's the poster boy for NJ Devils hockey

[SueNJ97]

Tri,

I'm pretty much done discussing this because we'll just have to agree to DISAGREE on whether Niedermayer is the most lazy, floating sorry-ass Dev to ever play.

Thought just crossed my mind that if you replaced 'Devs' with 'Rags', you'd have a plethora of choices to substitute for Nieds. But Kevin Hatcher probably fits best.

And for all Nieds has done to frustrate us, he's no Kevin Hatcher (thank God)!!!!!!

[NJDevs4978]

Tri:

Once again, show me where I said Niedermayer is the MOST lazy.

See below, from one of your posts:

That's a rationalization, MD.. we all know how to judge players' effort, we've watched another 17 players skate around Niedermayer on a nightly basis, and we've watched about 100 skate around with him on the same team as Niedermayer since he's been a Devil. We know that Niedermayer's effort is not up to par with those other 100 guys.

I can name one right off the bat that floated more than Nieds - Arnott after signing the new contract in 2001.

[NJDevs4978]

Tri:

2: Unsure about Tverdovsky. Tver's had the same problem Niedermayer has over the course of his career. For the most part, Tverdovsky's points were created by that outstanding Anaheim power play of Olausson Tver Rucchin Selanne Kariya. Plus, he had been accused of being weak defensively. We didn't know if he would fit, and if he could be a contributor.

And Tivo still hasn't been all that great this year himself (like Nieds he only got his first goal last night and yet there hasn't been 1/10 of the alarm over TiVo that there is over Nieds), so why the rush on this board to trade Nieds?

4: No need to upset chemistry. Why completely disorder the team structure in one offseason?

Well I meant to ask not only why hasn't Lou traded Nieds THIS offseason I was also asking why he hasn't traded him at all.

And why didn't Lou deal Niedermayer during a holdout? Simple. Nieds had the team over a barrel, Lou couldn't find an offensive D worth a damn for ten years of drafting.

We all thought ARNOTT held the team over a barrel (the thinking at the time was that he wouldn't trade him unless he was sure he could keep Holik) and Lou still traded him. So if he traded Arnott, he'd sure as shooting trade Nieds if he felt he was a problem.

I do give you credit for at least trying to answer the question.

[Triumph]

Ok, Has, you've revealed my poor writing.. I didn't mean up to par as in lagging behind everyone but as in lagging behind the average.. not sure if up to par can be used that way, and it's my mistake for having used it that way, seeing as it commonly means 'lacking'.. I should edit my posts more carefully. As I was saying, I MEANT that Niedermayer's effort was below average, not the worst.

As for Arnott, that's poor logic.. Lou traded Arnott because he knew that even though Arnott brought something to the team, it wasn't worth his incredible laziness, plus he wasn't doing what it was that he was supposed to be, hitting.. when Niedermayer was the only one who brought offensive play from the backline, he was still a potential star. Remember his 57 point year? Since then, his play has not been so egregiously lazy that he should be traded for that sake alone, but he should be dealt to add something to the Devils team.. it wouldn't be addition by subtraction, it would be addition with subtraction..

Up until 2002, the Devils had that thing they need now, namely physical scorers...Niedermayer was playing below potential, and is a rare player, so Nieds would have been dealt for another offensive D, not for some other player, because we would have a hole in our defense if we dealt him without receiving a replacement..now we have Tverdovsky..

I'm not saying get rid of Niedermayer for his own sake, necessarily, just outlining reasons why Niedermayer's presence isn't as necessary as everyone thinks it is, and why other players' presence is more of a necessity than his.

The more I post on this the more I suspect Lou isn't going to pull off a Niedermayer deal. But it is something he should be thinking about.

[redruM]

I've seen about 8 Capitals games this year, Sue.

The difference between with what he is saying and with what the trade Niedermayer crowd is saying is that those guys don't SHOW intensity.. I don't think anyone can fault Johansson, for example, but Bondra, Zubrus, and Gonchar are definitely not giving it everything.

But, the Caps management hasn't exactly given those guys the depth they need to function.

As for olp, if you think that the Devils can win with these forwards up front, go ahead and believe that. I don't think they can, and I don't think the Devils can rely on "will he bring it" tonight type players anymore.

Triumph I feel much more comfortable w/ this group of fowards then I would w/ Albelein as the 6th dman. Devs will not make it past the first round w/ Albelein as an everyday player.

[insanity_gallops]

The more I post on this the more I suspect Lou isn't going to pull off a Niedermayer deal.

Ah, so I'm not the only one....

[Triumph]

red I'll chalk up your ignorance to having been away from the board for a while...

Suffice it to say, I have said on numerous occasions that the Devils would be getting back a defenseman in a Niedermayer deal: not ONLY for the Devils' sake, but also for the team that receives him, as NO team can add 26 minutes to their defense without having an extra defenseman lying around who has been kicked down to the third pairing and is subsequently underused.

I have disagreed with those who have suggested Niedermayer deals that do not involve D-men coming back, namely the Buffalo proposal given by sundstrom. Albelin cannot be the Devils' 6th d-man.

[BFett]

Here's the thing about Nieds that nobody's answered; if he is such a big cancer and floater (and I agree that he's been horrible for the most part at the start of the season though Red does at least bring a valid point up - 7 points in 6 games isn't THAT bad), why didn't Lou let him go in the offseason especially after letting Arnott and Sykora go AND after trading for TiVo?

Whoa said anything about him being a cancer?

And you bring up his points in the last 6 games. Well, what happened the 10 games before that?

As for letting Niedsy go a la Sickora and Arenotgood, the reason he didn't is the same resaon why Nieds is mysteriously on the allstar ballot year after year w/out so much as even leading his team in scoring ever.

P-O-T-E-N-T-I-A-L.

[BFett]

And I agree with Umph, I dont know what everyone is crowing about a supposed "playoff preformance". Aside from the end to end goal in '95, what has he done?

oh wait I rememmber. I remember him falling down along the boards while defending against Jagr in the '99 playoffs which lead to the game winning goal of that game. I forget which game it was.

Ah, yes, only remember that one negative. I guess you forgot some of the key goals he scored in 2000, on our way to the Cup . Including the 1st goal in game 6.... I quote..

The Devils struck first at 5:18 of the second period, ending a scoring drought of 145 minutes, 31 seconds on Niedermayer's fifth playoff goal

For what it's worth, M***** who is treated like a saint by some fans here had a whopping FOUR goals that whole playoffs himself (then 5 in 2001), and he was supposedly our best SCORING FORWARD?

Awwww, c'mon Doggie. Your letting your personal liking of the guy get in the way of fairly judging him.

That '1 negative" as you put it, eventually cost the Devils the series.

And which Game 6 are you talking about?

And as for Alexander, while he may not have buried the biscuit as much as he should have, he was at least always an offensive threat out there and the other team had to act accordingly, unlike Niedsermayer.

[BFett]

Fact is while Nieds is a floater at times, obviously LOU still thinks he's valuable enough (and worth his idiosycrascies) to hold onto, whereas he did not feel that way with Arnott and Sykora.

Probably because the guy isn't as high maintenance as some of the others. He doesn't strike me as the whining, brooding type, if you disregard the contract squabbles (and he's not the only dude who's pulled that.. Elias whined even more years ago if I'm not mistaken and I was mad at him for that too ). Even the Nieds fans on the board aren't always happy with his play, but to be honest, there's very few players in the entire NHL fans can say play 100% EVERY SHIFT .

That's Scotty whole entire problem. Yeah, he DOESN"T 'whine, brood, etc.', along with he doesn't care, try, etc. The guy shows no emotion period! It's like he don't care.

And as for players not giving 100% every shift thats a copout. Of course players are human. It goes beyond that for Niedermaayer though

[SBT]

Has anyone seen Bilbo?

[Triumph]

Haha, my thoughts exactly SBT, but if this is Kyy he's done a major writing style change.. 'twould be fairly impressive, but I doubt it.

I disagree with most of what you've said Fett. The reason Niedermayer is on the All-Star ballot is the same reason he was on Canada's Olympic Team. He is still a top 30 defenseman in this league, in spite of his "potential". I think he could be more involved in the offense, but he is certainly no Lidstrom in terms of his offensive MIND.

My problem is that he didn't, at least last year and in 2001, use his skating to his advantage enough. He has the power to penetrate the offensive zone and make something happen, and to be able to beat opposing forwards back to his own blueline even if he turns it over deep in the zone.. but he doesn't take those kinds of risks.

It still makes sense for the Devils to try to deal him, though.

[SBT]

Your instincts are good, Triumph.

You've got to trust them.

Or, as Obi-wan would say: Trust your feelings, Luke.

[StarDew]

Here's the deal on Scotty boy.

Loads of talent. How else do you think he gets on the allstar ballot year after year? It's not like he's ever been the highest scoring d-man in the NHL. Damn, boy's never even lead his own team in scoring. He's never had even a 15 goals season and only scored more than 11 once. Never had 45 assists or 60 points. Yet he's always on the allstrat ballot.

Why?

Because everyone hopes/prays that maybe, just naybe Nieds will use the God given talent he has.

And it just doesnt happen

but a trade of him could bring in a proven goal scoring forward and a solid #4 or #5 d-man because of the immense talent and the slight slight chance that he may one day actually live up to that talent for more than 1 game every 20 games or so

And I agree with Umph, I dont know what everyone is crowing about a supposed "playoff preformance". Aside from the end to end goal in '95, what has he done?

oh wait I rememmber. I remember him falling down along the boards while defending against Jagr in the '99 playoffs which lead to the game winning goal of that game. I forget which game it was.

the fans that preach the accept him for what he is shpeel have got it all wrong. we shouldn't have to accept subpar preformance. if you people went out and bought a Porsche, would just 'accept it as is" if it didn't go above 25 mph? you buy a Porsche, you want a Porsche, not a Buick Skylark.

You get a #3 overall pick, you want a #3 overall pick, not someone you could have drafted in round nemuber 2

Where have I heard this before??? Oh yeah...on a different boad

[StarDew]

And I agree with Umph, I dont know what everyone is crowing about a supposed "playoff preformance". Aside from the end to end goal in '95, what has he done?

oh wait I rememmber. I remember him falling down along the boards while defending against Jagr in the '99 playoffs which lead to the game winning goal of that game. I forget which game it was.

Ah, yes, only remember that one negative. I guess you forgot some of the key goals he scored in 2000, on our way to the Cup . Including the 1st goal in game 6.... I quote..

The Devils struck first at 5:18 of the second period, ending a scoring drought of 145 minutes, 31 seconds on Niedermayer's fifth playoff goal

For what it's worth, M***** who is treated like a saint by some fans here had a whopping FOUR goals that whole playoffs himself (then 5 in 2001), and he was supposedly our best SCORING FORWARD?

Sound familiar to you MD???? Think a bit and let me know <_<

[StarDew]

Your instincts are good, Triumph.

You've got to trust them.

Or, as Obi-wan would say: Trust your feelings, Luke.

Haha, my thoughts exactly SBT, but if this is Kyy he's done a major writing style change.. 'twould be fairly impressive, but I doubt it.

I disagree with most of what you've said Fett. The reason Niedermayer is on the All-Star ballot is the same reason he was on Canada's Olympic Team. He is still a top 30 defenseman in this league, in spite of his "potential". I think he could be more involved in the offense, but he is certainly no Lidstrom in terms of his offensive MIND.

Has anyone seen Bilbo?

Very intuitive SBT and Tri...I mentioned the same thing to a friend after reading the first post by the aforementioned and figured this time I would see how long b4 others got it...very impressive Facades-r-us was a dot.com bust

Sidebar: usually I read an entire thread b4 posting replies...this one had too many pages...see what happens when you don't Coulda replied to both of you, MD and the originator in one fell swoop

[Derek21]

I don't think this poster is someone else at all. The writing style is completely different.

As for the topic, Niedermayer has always been on and off for some reason. All that talent and ability but he's never consistent.

Has asked someone earlier why a poster didn't get on Tverdovsky? Are you kidding?

T-vo's been better than Niedermayer this year. I don't care what the stats are for Nieds the past few games. He hasn't been as good.

Earlier in this thread, Madd Dog also mentioned Holik not being a leader. If you are correct, then how did he get an 'A' last year?

If a player is handed an 'A,' that's leadership. Holik deserved it too based on how he played.

That's my take and I'm sticking with it.

[Triumph]

Agree with everything Derek.. plus Tverdovsky's been here 15 games whereas Niedermayer has been here what, 700? I expect new guys to take 20-25 games to settle in, get used to New Jersey, etc. I suspect that's why most of the board has held off on Friesen so far too.

[Derek21]

Tri, I didn't even mention that about T-vo. Good point. A new player as well and look how quickly he adjusted.

Good stuff.

[redruM]

red I'll chalk up your ignorance to having been away from the board for a while...

Suffice it to say, I have said on numerous occasions that the Devils would be getting back a defenseman in a Niedermayer deal: not ONLY for the Devils' sake, but also for the team that receives him, as NO team can add 26 minutes to their defense without having an extra defenseman lying around who has been kicked down to the third pairing and is subsequently underused.

I have disagreed with those who have suggested Niedermayer deals that do not involve D-men coming back, namely the Buffalo proposal given by sundstrom. Albelin cannot be the Devils' 6th d-man.

My ignorance???

Well enlighten me please...what deal are you going to make thats going to bring back a Dman & a scoring foward....(this should be good)!!!...thats going to make this team better....while losing neids....

because if the experts of the NHL think like you then Neids is not worth that much in the trade market....

Neider is a top 30 dman???

please name 30 defensman better than him...I need a good laugh!!!

Talk about your ignorance!!!

[MaddDog]

Awwww, c'mon Doggie. Your letting your personal liking of the guy get in the way of fairly judging him.

That '1 negative" as you put it, eventually cost the Devils the series.

And which Game 6 are you talking about?

And as for Alexander, while he may not have buried the biscuit as much as he should have, he was at least always an offensive threat out there and the other team had to act accordingly, unlike Niedsermayer.

Niedermayer isn't even in my top 5 favorite Devils, so this is hardly a case of me defending "my boy" to the death. It seems more like you have a bias against him than I have a bias for him, sorry - at least that's the impression I'm getting from your posts.

Which Game 6?? 2000 CUP FINALS ring a bell? Niedermayer scored the 1st goal against Dallas, then Arnott had the GW in OT. NJ prevails 2-1. And if I'm not mistaken, it was a short-handed goal by Nied too. I think he had two sh that playoffs. So if you're going to blast him for one negative that supposedly cost the Devs the series in '99, at least acknowledge he helped us win the series in 2000.

I can't believe you'd scrutinize one goof by Nied in one year but then you go and excuse M****** for inept scoring for a particular playoff season. FOUR goals for M******, FIVE for Nied in 2000 and which one is the scoring forward again? Almo failed in the post-season, if his role was to be a scoring winger. He missed the net and blew numerous scoring chances from what I can recollect, in addition to having shots and goals. Did you ever stop to think that he cost us the Cup in 2001 because he had a whole one goal in his last SEVENTEEN games or so? Naww, of course not.

[devspage]

Which Game 6?? 2000 CUP FINALS ring a bell? Niedermayer scored the 1st goal against Dallas, then Arnott had the GW in OT. NJ prevails 2-1. And if I'm not mistaken, it was a short-handed goal by Nied too. I think he had two sh that playoffs. So if you're going to blast him for one negative that supposedly cost the Devs the series in '99, at least acknowledge he helped us win the series in 2000.

I think it was a 5-on-3 as well...

Something about "rocket-assisted skates" and "only Scott Niedermayer could have made this happen" are the ESPN quotes that I'm remembering.

[Triumph]

Sorry red, I was a little tipsy when I wrote that .. I meant ignorance by your accusation that Albelin would play if Nieds was dealt.. earlier in this thread I said the Devils needed a D back.

30 defensemen better than Niedermayer?

That's hard to do. It's hard to judge Niedermayer because if you put his best play up against the best play of other defensemen, he's clearly a top 10 guy.. but if you put his worst play up against the worst play of others, Niedermayer's is also worse.

Niedermayer's all around play is probably better than most, but there are many more guys that are better on the offensive side, and many more better on the defensive side.. I could definitely name 30 guys that are better on O or D than Niedermayer, but not both. But that's what is so frustrating is that Niedermayer could dominate both sides of the puck 40 nights a year but he only picks out 10.

What deal am I going to make? I don't know. Again, I can only speculate that Niedermayer is going to go, I've no idea who would come back, because I don't know who is available.. Doan and one of Vaananen/Mara/Markov is the best I can come up with.

If you don't think this team NEEDS a big forward you're kidding yourself, and the Devils would be silly to have invested 54 million dollars in a team that is right now relying on John Madden and Jamie Langenbrunner for goals.

Niedermayer scored the 5 on 3 goal against the Panthers in Game 2. I know because I was there.. of course if he missed, the Panthers have a 4 on 1 back the other way.. those are the kinds of risks I think Niedermayer should take more often, because he is confident he can get back. But then sometimes he does and gets caught way out of position, because his offensive instincts are poor..

[devspage]

Niedermayer scored the 5 on 3 goal against the Panthers in Game 2. I know because I was there

I started wondering if it was that game right after I posted.

I KNOW the quotes were from the Finals game tho. I think...