Camp Report 9/14

[Triumph]

Thornton started out there because HE HAD JUNIOR ELIGIBILITY! This is exactly my point, he had nothing to learn in junior, so Boston brought him up and educated him about defense. If they could have sent him to the AHL, they would have. Antropov was quickly dispatched to the AHL as I remember, and if he wasn't, he was his 2nd year. Gomez put up 15 points on a defacto 3rd/4th line until he was moved up to the 3rd line, Morrison started on the 4th line and the PP, and Fisher has since been moved to wing (and still isn't in the top 6). I suppose I should've been less dismissive of the idea of bringing up a prospect on the 4th line, but it is very rare for a team to do it, and rather short-sighted, especially in the case of Foster. What raw players need is ice time, not NHL action.

The Devils earlier in the year went closer to a 3 line system than I've seen before, one where players who need time to learn things won't get the ice time they need on the fourth line. Remember, the purpose of the AHL is learning, and learning for the sake of utility in the NHL. Morrison didn't belong in the AHL in his first season probably, much less his second, but the Devils had to use him and had 3 centers above him on the depth chart, so to the 4th line he went. Was he better than Carpenter? Of course. Was he more useful? Of course not. So to the 4th line he went.

Here's a more modern example.. Berglund and McKenzie this year, many on the board questioned.. why wasn't Berglund in instead of Mckenzie, this is bs, etc. the reason was Berglund would hardly help the team in that role and wouldn't get the kind of ice time he needs to learn the NHL game. Fans face this 'quandary' time and time again all over the NHL, and somehow they don't see why it is the case that 32 year old scrubs will get ice time over 21 year old wunderkinds. They (arrogantly) claim that it's management's error, favoritism, something like this. It has nothing to do with that, it's common sense that dictates the way well-run franchises like the Devils do things.

I follow all the other NHL teams to the extent that I know who is on their rosters. About their prospects I know vagaries and that's about it.. I don't need to 'know' any more, since all prospect 'knowledge' is basically an educated guess and a prediction.. 50% of 1st rounders don't play in the NHL, so I'm hesitant to trust any kind of observation by others until I observe the player myself.

When there's 10 seconds left, fine, faceoffs are important. Winning faceoffs is still overrated, we didn't do it in 2000 and still won a Cup. Game after game, ESPN would toss those stats at us, game after game, we'd win. The only faceoffs that truly matter to a team like the Devils are defensive-zone draws. Notice Gomez rarely takes these? Foster wouldn't either. So I don't see the point in discussing this in regard to Foster any more.

[Rock]

I was there for both sessions today. Here are some observations: Kadeykin and Chvatal were the only two defensemen in the prospect practice before the scrimmage. Larry Robinson spent a lot of time with them. Pat Burns was not on the ice for both sessions. Friesen scored a very pretty goal in the scrimmage. The veterens were mixing their defensive pairs around. At one point Stevens and Neidermayer were paired, as Rafalski and White were. Elias was not wearing those skates that do not need sharpening. Not sure what that means. Marty doesn't have the 3rd cup on the back of his mask yet. He was sitting right in front of me as the goalies were changing from the penalty boxes. Lot of hitting by the veterens. Stevenson looked like it was the finals again going in and hitting the defensemen as they tried to move the puck out of their zone. Langenbrunner and Hale got in a shoving match. Stevens hit some rookies, not his big splatter checks, but I'm sure they felt it! B) I know it was against prospects but the Devils A squad looked very good today! B)

[sundstrom]

while i also can't imagine foster making the team, i wouldn't say it is out of the question. if he has an outstanding camp, he could make the team. you insist that the only place for foster is the 4th line.

but let's say that he impresses in camp enough to show that he does have offensive ability and can compete compitantly at the NHL level.

couple that with the fact that the darby's and berglund's and bicek's have provided a pretty good idea of what they can do on the NHL level (i.e. not more than role players....at best).

why couldn't lines shake out something like this:

elias-gomez-marshall

freisen-foster-gionta

langer-madden-pando

stevenson-larionov-brylin

rasmussen being the extra brought in. again, this team really doesn't have that 4th line "grind-line" but then again, it doesn't necessarily have to.

please understand, i'm not saying this will or should happen. i'm simply saying that should foster impress, it's not out of the realm of possibility.

oh, and while we're on the subject of rookies, i very much believe that Hale will make this team out of camp and be in the starting line up. He, Brown, and Giroux will most likely rotate on the bottom pairing, and perhaps spell one of the top 4 once or twice a month.

[Triumph]

A possibility, sundstrom, I'll grant, but rare for the Devs to do this.. I suppose what I'm going to say will sound like a contradiction, but it isn't. The Devils do use prospects on the 4th line. To test them, to see if they've passed the AHL test. But they don't stay there long, they are either moved up or traded, or sent back to the AHL. Foster, being that he has little pro experience, is unlikely to get the royal treatment. It's not out of the realm of possibility, but the last prospect to do something like that was Petr Sykora, and even he had lots of pro experience before, and as I recall (someone with a more reliable Devils memory correct me if I am wrong), was moved from center to wing in that initial season. May be off on that.

[GA Devil]

Off the top of my head I can remember Gomez impressing in his first camp, and then he got sent back to the Tri-Cities. Second camp ended and he was with the big club.

[Devils731]

When there's 10 seconds left in the game and it is tied with a DEFENSIVE zone faceoff, you are flat out wrong when you say faceoffs are overrated.  Flat out wrong.

If they were overrated, we would send out Gomez everytime we are in that situation.  So then, why don't you see Gomez out there in those situations in real life?  Could it be because winning the faceoff is IMPORTANT?  I'd like to think so.

You control the majority of the faceoffs, you control the flow of the game.  It's that simple and it's that true.

Face-offs, while important, tend to get over-rated. Yes we saw goals scored off of draws in the playoffs but you have hundreds of draws that just don't matter, and the best face-off men in the league only win them in a 6 out of 10 clip. So when something is only important in a rare instance and no one is truly that dominant in winning them it ends up becoming a sought after, but not vital, component to a players game.

-Scott

[Jas0nMacIsaac]

Faceoffs are not underated, powerplays can go down the drain without a good faceoff man, you will allways have to work your ass off n the defensive zone when you lose the draw, you can't get anything set up in the offensive zone. You do realize Anahiem made it that far in the playoffs with faceoffs, they kept iceing it when ever they wanted to and controling offensive faceoffs.

[CRASHER]

face-offs like a lot of the game are situationally important and yes losing

them in your own end CAN be bad, but if your team is on the ball and gets

to the assignments quickly that too can be countered.. it's just rather difficult

to execute that play perfectly all the time

not to mention it was the only stat the Devils were getting handled in so of

COURSE the Always Biased Coverage was going gonzo

with it

[Pepperkorn]

I'm skimming and just want to say while Rupp looks dull as dishwater in the AHL - I find he's pretty well suited to the NHL -- sometimes it happens that way - go figure.

For example I hate Giroux in the NHL but he's great in the AHL -- and it may be nerves but I don't think so. That's my only hesitation with College guys -- their intellectual game can hold them up - they have the AHL sussed and get scared/paralized when it's time to move on -- or do they just suck? Are they not made of NHL stuff? Tricky stuff moving guys up...and we don't even know the half of it. Speculating on prospects is hardly an exact science --

[Triumph]

And the Devils won a Cup without a good power play, so more conventional wisdom gets smashed by this 2003 team.

Faceoffs simply aren't that important. In 2000, the Devils probably won faceoffs 45% of the time and still won the Cup. Arnott stunk at faceoffs and the A line was the best line in hockey, and one of the best on the PP (although I think Holik took draws on the PP, now that I remember).

The faceoff has its value, but to win a game, you do not need to be good on draws.

[msweet]

And the Devils won a Cup without a good power play, so more conventional wisdom gets smashed by this 2003 team.

Faceoffs simply aren't that important.  In 2000, the Devils probably won faceoffs 45% of the time and still won the Cup.  Arnott stunk at faceoffs and the A line was the best line in hockey, and one of the best on the PP (although I think Holik took draws on the PP, now that I remember). 

The faceoff has its value, but to win a game, you do not need to be good on draws.

I think the better way to put this would be to say...

And the Devils won a Cup surpisingly despite not having a good power play, so more conventional wisdom gets smashed by this 2003 team.

...and like I've always said, the A-line was great despite Arnott.... Holik played well there, and so did Gomer.

Heck, I'd look good betweeb Elias and Sykora, and I can't win many faceoffs either.

[Triumph]

I think that's an unfair characterization msweet, while the parade of centers who played between Elias and Sykora (Nemchinov, Gomez, Holik, etc.) looked good, none of them quite developed the chemistry Arnott did with those two. They looked OK, but the line's full potential was realized with #25.

[sundstrom]

gomez, btw, would probably have not made the team had elias not held out.

[chinook]

From what you guys have seen so far, how do you think Chvatal and Kadeykin are doing?

[rbdf]

Just adding my two cents:

First penny; You don't need a holik/nieuwee/oates type of faceoff specialist who wins over 70% of their draws, but faceoff's are important and you do need a couple of centers who will do 50%, or at least tie most things up so the other guys don't get clean wins to the point for a shot. Unfortunately, Madden is our only 50% guy right now, we really need at least one more reliable 50%'er.

Second penny; Foster, unlike many of the others, will be eligible to float up and down without worrying about the waiver list. I think due to age/pro experience, guys like berglund, rupp and gionta would have to clear waivers. That becomes a huge factor in who sticks with the team, who gets sent to Albany, juniors etc. I'm sure it hurt lou when Lemaire snatched Zyuzin last season. He wasn't gonna be our #6 or #7, lou wanted to sneak him down to albany for some ice time and maybe some larry robinson instruction, but he ended up losing him for nothing. You can be sure Lam's won't expose someone else with any potential to that. So you have to factor in who needs to go on waivers vs. who doesn't into the decisions as to who does or doesn't make the team or get assigned to Albany straight out of camp.

[rbdf]

one last thought also:, sundstom, it was more probably morrison's hold out that got gomez into the line up.

[Sarge18]

Just adding my two cents:

First penny; You don't need a holik/nieuwee/oates type of faceoff specialist who wins over 70% of their draws, but faceoff's are important and you do need a couple of centers who will do 50%, or at least tie most things up so the other guys don't get clean wins to the point for a shot. Unfortunately, Madden is our only 50% guy right now, we really need at least one more reliable 50%'er.

Woah, there isnt a guy in the league faceoff specialist or not who wins 70% of his draws. The top guys are normally around 60% give or take a few over/under.

Personally i feel that faceoffs is one of the areas can stand to improve, however it is not worth giving someone a roster spot just because. This isnt the NFL where you can have a guy for utility things only.

Also on the topic of the PP, for most of the playoffs it wasnt a factor as we played fairly penalty free games. And at times it was working pretty well and came up with goals when needed. It cant hurt that Anahiems playoff pp was worse then ours as well.