ghdi Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 Hockey has no chance in Seattle without a building. It would take a major push to get it there. In the case of expansion, thats about the only way. A team moving there, no. They dont have the support of the people or local gov't. Portland has an inferiority complex to Seattle, because its inferior. Seattle is a metropolitan city with the NFL and MLB (despite the history of being poor franchises) very heartily supported. Seattle is also a transportation hub which Portland is not. I also lived in San Diego. "Too much to do there?" Thats a poor excuse and doesnt hold water. The same excuse could be levied at just about every single major city in the country of similar size. If Tampa Bay can support a hockey team, San Diego certainly can. San Diego's only problem is the lack of a building or investors that care to push for a team. Houston was passed over in 1997 because, at the time, they did not have a suitable arena. They do now. They had Bob McNair (Texans owner) and the Aeros owner (Chuck Watson) both making pushes to bring the NHL there, but the current arena wasn't done until later, which is an NHL appropriate building. The only reason Houston was passed over was they wouldn't have the arena done in time. The litigation issue was between two parties who both wanted to own the NHL team. http://www.nytimes.com/1997/01/14/sports/cities-line-up-to-join-the-nhl.html Had Houston had the arena and a solid ownership in time for the last expansion, Columbus would be the Houston franchise. Houston is a very viable market. The Stars are also typically in the upper half of NHL attendance. They've gone down in recent years because the team hasnt been as good. Houston is also double the size of Dallas population wise and 4th in the entire country. http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac760 Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 (edited) I basically agree with you on the Pacific NW. Portland, OR is a larger TV market than Pittsburgh, Raleigh, Nashville, Buffalo, Columbus, Kansas City, Las Vegas, Milwaukee, Cincinatti, and San Diego. But it always will play second fiddle to larger Seattle. Other than the Chargers, San Diego just doesn't seem like a die hard pro sports town. Even when the Padres were good 10 or so years ago they didn't seem to draw great, decent, but not great. The Gulls did OK but that is 2 levels down from NHL. Population wise it is a good size market though. While Houston is the 4th largest city the Yotes are potentially leaving the 6th largest. I'm not sure if population really equals fan base. Edited April 16, 2011 by mac760 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghdi Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 I agree with that, but Houston has shown it supports its teams. Astros, Texans, and Rockets all do good gates. The Stars' attendance is relatively strong or at least if you consider middle of the pack, strong. The Aeros are also in the top 10 in AHL attendance this year. http://theahl.com/stats/schedule.php?view=attendance&season_id=34 I think Houston is a viable market, but I agree with the consensus that the best thing for the NHL right now is expand or move teams into Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmajeski06 Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 If you don't mind my asking, are you old enough to remember the '95 Cup and the drama surrounding it? Because you sound like fans of all the other teams in the league when we won the Cup back then. It's eerie. Not trying to be a jerk or anything, just genuinely curious. I remember that time and all the drama of the Devils potentially moving to Nashville even after winning the Cup pretty well. I like the Coyotes a lot, probably because they remind me of that time so much. I'm pulling for them, both to go on said miracle run, and to stay in Phoenix. It's a shame they keep drawing the Red Wings in the playoffs. I was in 3rd grade when the Devils won in '95. I remember my Dad telling me to enjoy the moment because they may be moving to Nashville. I didn't understand why, but I do remember being angry about it. I'm not rooting against the Coyotes. I feel bad for their fans, as I know there is some 3rd grader there who is angry too his team may be leaving for reasons he can't yet understand. At the same time I understand why the people of Winnipeg want a team back. It's all pretty crazy. If you don't mind my asking, are you old enough to remember the '95 Cup and the drama surrounding it? Because you sound like fans of all the other teams in the league when we won the Cup back then. It's eerie. Not trying to be a jerk or anything, just genuinely curious. I remember that time and all the drama of the Devils potentially moving to Nashville even after winning the Cup pretty well. I like the Coyotes a lot, probably because they remind me of that time so much. I'm pulling for them, both to go on said miracle run, and to stay in Phoenix. It's a shame they keep drawing the Red Wings in the playoffs. I was in 3rd grade when the Devils won in '95. I remember my Dad telling me to enjoy the moment because they may be moving to Nashville. I didn't understand why, but I do remember being angry about it. I'm not rooting against the Coyotes. I feel bad for their fans, as I know there is some 3rd grader there who is angry too his team may be leaving for reasons he can't yet understand. At the same time I understand why the people of Winnipeg want a team back. It's all pretty crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 Speaking strictly of Atlanta, the ownership has been involved in a long drawn out lawsuit between each other for years. The only season the Thrashers made the playoffs they drew ~17,000 a game. Hockey can work here but the product cannot be consistently terrible. There are very few cities that would respond to the failure on the ice seen in Atlanta and Columbus with high attendance. If that is your standard for "supporting NHL hockey" then the league would be much smaller. Right, but if there were lots of money to be made, presumably the Thrashers' owners would've settled this lawsuit and sold the team. Sure, big-market teams have had bad ownership, and have lost money and fans as a result. Hockey could work in Atlanta. It was still going to be an uphill battle for it to work, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slasher72 Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 If you don't mind my asking, are you old enough to remember the '95 Cup and the drama surrounding it? Because you sound like fans of all the other teams in the league when we won the Cup back then. It's eerie. Not trying to be a jerk or anything, just genuinely curious. I remember that time and all the drama of the Devils potentially moving to Nashville even after winning the Cup pretty well. I like the Coyotes a lot, probably because they remind me of that time so much. I'm pulling for them, both to go on said miracle run, and to stay in Phoenix. It's a shame they keep drawing the Red Wings in the playoffs. two things that will never change... paying taxes and seeing the Red Wings in the playoffs. It's uncanny how every year they have an awesome team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devlman Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 (edited) Right, but if there were lots of money to be made, presumably the Thrashers' owners would've settled this lawsuit and sold the team. Sure, big-market teams have had bad ownership, and have lost money and fans as a result. Hockey could work in Atlanta. It was still going to be an uphill battle for it to work, though. Presumably. BUT, ownership deals are very complex and sometimes theres alot of T's to cross and i's to dot. One can argue that because of the tough spot previous owners have left the Thrashers that its going to make prospective owners cautious. Uphill battle for sure, but its not the market's fault. There arent many potential relocation cities anyway, and you dont wanna be moving teams around like the nba every 4 years. However, Seattle would be a great market i think if they got an arena. Edited April 21, 2011 by devlman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMazz Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 (edited) DELETE: Disregard already covered. Edited April 21, 2011 by TheMazz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Man Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Houston is also double the size of Dallas population wise and 4th in the entire country. http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance If you count the city population itself, yes. But that is a very misleading stat regarding market size. The DFW metro area is still larger than the Houston metro area. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropolitan_areas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 i like how people think an NHL team would be better off in a "big US city" just cause its bigger and richer... it's not as much about population but about Hockey Market... in most of those cities people would get season tickets for football, baseball, basket, etc before spending on an NHL team, plus most of the future hockey fans would have to be created like they failed to do in Atlanta with those mascot commercials trying to create an interest... anywhere in Canada its pretty much plug & play as for the "public and fans factor" it goes both way... throw in an expansion NBA team in Mtl.. even if the Raptors are doing alright im sure it would not work in Mtl cause its all hockey there and im pretty sure they dont care much about basket to throw a 5 000$ season ticket Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bootleg Saint Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 It's funny how a market like Nashville can work, but Atlanta can't. I guess there is less sports in Nashville, but still you would think Atlanta would work better before Nashville would. The Preds have been a better team though, so I'm sure that counts for something. But, Nashville shows you can make it work in a non-traditional hockey market, you just have to have the right hockey people at the start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghdi Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 (edited) If you count the city population itself, yes. But that is a very misleading stat regarding market size.The DFW metro area is still larger than the Houston metro area. http://en.wikipedia....ropolitan_areas Regardless of that, Houston is still more capable than probably any other American market right now. They have a building and a foundation for hockey. Theres not many others that could take on a team immediately outside of Canada. i like how people think an NHL team would be better off in a "big US city" just cause its bigger and richer... it's not as much about population but about Hockey Market... In the case of Houston, its got one of the better AHL franchises attendance wise (top 10) in their league. There's already a market for it and Texas as a state has proven it will back its sports franchises politically and amongst the citizenry (Houston Oilers is a completely separate story). Its also got the history of hockey in the city going back to the 70s in the WHA. Again, Houston was on track for a NHL franchise until there was a spat between the two different groups who wanted the controlling interest and they didnt have the arena that was built to NHL specifications at the time, so Columbus got the team. Edited April 21, 2011 by ghdi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefiestygoat Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 It's funny how a market like Nashville can work, but Atlanta can't. I guess there is less sports in Nashville, but still you would think Atlanta would work better before Nashville would. The Preds have been a better team though, so I'm sure that counts for something. But, Nashville shows you can make it work in a non-traditional hockey market, you just have to have the right hockey people at the start. I think the fact Nashville has been able to make the playoffs 6 times compared to Atlanta's 1 is a factor. I'm too lazy to look up the economics but Nashville is surrounded by nice suburbs like Brentwood and Franklin that have people that can spend money to support the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rock 07 Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Hockey has no chance in Seattle without a building. It would take a major push to get it there. In the case of expansion, thats about the only way. A team moving there, no. They dont have the support of the people or local gov't. Portland has an inferiority complex to Seattle, because its inferior. Seattle is a metropolitan city with the NFL and MLB (despite the history of being poor franchises) very heartily supported. Seattle is also a transportation hub which Portland is not. I also lived in San Diego. "Too much to do there?" Thats a poor excuse and doesnt hold water. The same excuse could be levied at just about every single major city in the country of similar size. If Tampa Bay can support a hockey team, San Diego certainly can. San Diego's only problem is the lack of a building or investors that care to push for a team. Houston was passed over in 1997 because, at the time, they did not have a suitable arena. They do now. They had Bob McNair (Texans owner) and the Aeros owner (Chuck Watson) both making pushes to bring the NHL there, but the current arena wasn't done until later, which is an NHL appropriate building. The only reason Houston was passed over was they wouldn't have the arena done in time. The litigation issue was between two parties who both wanted to own the NHL team. http://www.nytimes.com/1997/01/14/sports/cities-line-up-to-join-the-nhl.html Had Houston had the arena and a solid ownership in time for the last expansion, Columbus would be the Houston franchise. Houston is a very viable market. The Stars are also typically in the upper half of NHL attendance. They've gone down in recent years because the team hasnt been as good. Houston is also double the size of Dallas population wise and 4th in the entire country. http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance Houston is very annexation happy so a good portion of their suburban areas in Houston proper, unlike Dallas which has Plano, McKinney, Frisco, Arlington (all with populations over 100k) plus Fort Worth. So that stat is rather misleading as comparing the populations of Dallas and Houston because Dallas/Fort Worth is a much larger metropolitan area (as was said in an earlier post). That being said, here in Dallas, Stars fans would love a Houston franchise. It would create an instant rivalry, as the Stars' biggest rival currently is Edmonton, and it would be very successful in Houston. Hockey in Dallas has been very successful, its at a low point right now because of the ownership situation and Mike Modano leaving. WIth the whole ownership situation, they haven't been able to market at all and there have been less ticket plan options and the prices have gone up. But when they get a new owner (likely over the summer), the attendance will go back up to the 17k numbers they were drawing before Tom Hicks went bankrupt. But youth hockey is huge with the Stars running many rinks around the Metroplex and there are successful minor league teams (Texas Tornado, Allen Americans) as well. So with a Houston team, a rivalry would be created instantly which would draw more interest in the Stars and it wouldn't impact the Stars fanbase since noone in Houston would ever root for a Dallas team. So I would have to believe that Houston would be a solid hockey market as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefiestygoat Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/sports/nhl/coyotes/coyotes-purchase-meeting-4-21-2011 The meeting was held behind closed doors -- and both sides held their ground.The Goldwater Institute came up with 7 critical problems with the buying agreement -- and they said if solutions aren't found, they will go ahead with their suit. Matthew Hulsizer told us he plans to go through with the purchase, lawsuit or no lawsuit. http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/Goldwater-raises-concerns-with-Glendale-120428094.html The Goldwater Institute met with City of Glendale representatives as well as Matthew Husizer on Thursday evening to discuss the planned sale of the Phoenix Coyotes.Goldwater opposes Glendale's role in the sale, stating the city is subsidizing Hulsizer's bid to purchase the NHL team, which is in contravention of the Arizona city's laws. Below is a document outlining the list of concerns and potential solutions Goldwater raised with Glendale on Thursday. (Click link to see document) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinn01 Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I would have liked to see them go to Quebec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDog2020 Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I would agree- of any US markets without a team, Houston would probably be the best place for one, as the money and the fanbase would be there. It makes the most sense of any US market for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefiestygoat Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I would have liked to see them go to Quebec. Atlanta does have a lot of rumors swirling they may end up moving at some point...I'd be nice if it was to Quebec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilzibook Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I would love to see Trashers move up here! I think if a team has to move to Quebec it will be Atlanta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I would have liked to see them go to Quebec. as much as i would want a team in quebec i think teams shouldnt switch conference... so i'd go with Phoenix to winnipeg then atlanta to quebec... that way the Jets joins the Northwest divisions and colorado join the Pacific division then if atlanta goes to quebec... not too sure what could happen... Nordiques re-joining the Northeast then buffalo joining our division and flyers or pittsburgh going in the southeast... that would be awesome lol the league would LOVE IT... Crosby vs Ovechkin 6 times per season $$$$$$$$$$$$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yankeesjetsfan Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Seattle could definately support an NHL team. I can see them getting one and sticking it to Stern and the NBA by building a new arena up there, especially after Stern has said that the NBA will never return to Seattle. That city is clamoring for a team to follow in Jan and Feb once the chicken hawks season is done. They lost their basketball team and are forced to watch the Oklahoma City Thunder play into the playoffs when that should have been their team. That has to suck on so many levels. I can see the city throwing their love and solidly supporting an NHL franchise. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDog2020 Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Seattle could definately support an NHL team. I can see them getting one and sticking it to Stern and the NBA by building a new arena up there, especially after Stern has said that the NBA will never return to Seattle. That city is clamoring for a team to follow in Jan and Feb once the chicken hawks season is done. They lost their basketball team and are forced to watch the Oklahoma City Thunder play into the playoffs when that should have been their team. That has to suck on so many levels. I can see the city throwing their love and solidly supporting an NHL franchise. Mike The taxpayers up there aren't building an arena, so if Seattle is getting an NHL team, someone with a sh!t-ton of money is going to have to pony up and build one him or herself. That's pretty much that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghdi Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Seattle could definately support an NHL team. I can see them getting one and sticking it to Stern and the NBA by building a new arena up there, especially after Stern has said that the NBA will never return to Seattle. That city is clamoring for a team to follow in Jan and Feb once the chicken hawks season is done. They lost their basketball team and are forced to watch the Oklahoma City Thunder play into the playoffs when that should have been their team. That has to suck on so many levels. I can see the city throwing their love and solidly supporting an NHL franchise. Seattle cannot support a team without an NHL appropriate building which they do not have (Key Arena is not up to NHL standards) and has been covered in this thread. They lack support from the local gov't for funding a new arena which is why the Sonics left. In other words, Seattle is very far from ever having an NHL franchise in the modern era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmajeski06 Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Poor kid. http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Puck-Headlines-Kaleta-explains-door-trick-wors?urn=nhl-wp3214 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSC Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 That's the saddest thing I've seen in a while. Ugh, I can only imagine what it feels like to have your team ripped right out from under you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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