redruM Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 So no norris trophies means mediocre career??? The guy is the BEST deman on the team right now and IMHO the most talented player in the lineup... buts lets trade him becuase he has not won the Norris. Hell lets trade Broduer for not winning the Vezina....and Elias has not won a scoring title lets trade him.... get a grip....Neids is a huge part of this team, just his pressence on the ice creates space for others... I have not seen alot of hockey this year, but maybe Neids lloks so mediocre becuase WHite has been so good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msweet Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Can any of you so called Devil fans post on anything else but to trade our best player? Hey I've got and Idea: Let's trade Niedermayer and Friesen for Petr Sykora of the Ducks. I here he's a sniper and an excellent RW! I see that things have gone back to crap while I've been away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Man Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Can any of you so called Devil fans post on anything else but to trade our best player? If Niedermayer is our best player, that's sad. Most talented? Maybe. If pure talent was the only thing that mattered, Doc Gooden, Darryl Strawberry, Derrick Coleman and Randy Moss would be mentioned with some of the all time greatest players ever to play their sports. There's a big difference between having the talent and actually using that talent to the best of your ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFett Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Can any of you so called Devil fans post on anything else but to trade our best player? If Niedermayer is our best player, that's sad. Most talented? Maybe. If pure talent was the only thing that mattered, Doc Gooden, Darryl Strawberry, Derrick Coleman and Randy Moss would be mentioned with some of the all time greatest players ever to play their sports. There's a big difference between having the talent and actually using that talent to the best of your ability. El Zorro hit the el nailo on the el heado regarding EL ZILCHO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risky Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Yeah, no way Nieds is our best player. Sorry. Raffi has been way more consistent. Marty is our best player, hands down. Elias still has the most talent on the team. The point here, as I've underlined many a time already, is that Niedermayer is worth more in trade value than he is in play value with our team the way it is right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaddDog Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Trade Neider??? What is the matter w/ you people??? He has a bad october and lets trade him... I mean who cares how he playes in April May & June when the games actually count right??? Please give me a break!!!Holik for years came up empty in cluthc time and most of you worshipped him, Neids has been one of our best players EVERYTI*ME we have made a playoff run...buts lets worry that he is not playing well in October... NOT!!! You know, Red DOES have a point. In the past many fans used to tend to disregard the times A$$holik didn't produce or do much, yet they are all over Nied for the same behavior? I also am willing to give the guy a little time to get his game back, instead of wanting to run him out of town for someone I don't even like (someone like McLaren? Spare me!!!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaddDog Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 sheesh, by now, with the talent that Scotty has, he should have a whole trophy case full of norris's, Hart's, and conn Smyths.boy's got el ZILCHO I guess the 2 cups and Olympic gold medal he also played NO part in whatsoever, right? I think your statement is at the crux of the problem when it comes to Niedermayer. Many fans feel he MUST be the next coming of Bobby Orr and if he's not, he's a 'mediocre' defenseman (I'm NOT one of them)... perhaps the expectations should be lowered a bit more to match reality? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SueNJ97 Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Trade Neider??? What is the matter w/ you people??? He has a bad october and lets trade him... I mean who cares how he playes in April May & June when the games actually count right??? Please give me a break!!!Holik for years came up empty in cluthc time and most of you worshipped him, Neids has been one of our best players EVERYTI*ME we have made a playoff run...buts lets worry that he is not playing well in October... NOT!!! You know, Red DOES have a point. In the past many fans used to tend to disregard the times A$$holik didn't produce or do much, yet they are all over Nied for the same behavior? I also am willing to give the guy a little time to get his game back, instead of wanting to run him out of town for someone I don't even like (someone like McLaren? Spare me!!!!) MD, Nieds' current lack of production doesn't worry me, for all the reason you/red/others have stated. It's the continual defensive mistakes. That's where the comparison to Holik doesn't hold...even when Bobby wasn't producing, he held up defensively. OK, he took bad penalties, but we expected that. Nieds has been defensively sound in the past. Unless he's hurt, what's the deal this year (old age doesn't apply in his case)???? He doesn't suddenly become constantly mistake-prone, unless he's hurt or, as might be the case, he just doesn't care anymore & needs a change of scenery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaddDog Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 The point here, as I've underlined many a time already, is that Niedermayer is worth more in trade value than he is in play value with our team the way it is right now. Pure speculation. Basically, anything we fans say is speculation or hypothetical scenarios so you cannot be CERTAIN that Niedermayer is worth more trade-value wise than he is to the team now. (And if he's so friggin' BAD or 'el zilcho' according to some, why the hell would other teams give us a really high quality player back??? Nice logic). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaddDog Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 MD, Nieds' current lack of production doesn't worry me, for all the reason you/red/others have stated. It's the continual defensive mistakes.That's where the comparison to Holik doesn't hold...even when Bobby wasn't producing, he held up defensively. OK, he took bad penalties, but we expected that. I will agree he's had some defensive lapses but I've noticed other d-men doing the same thing..... he can do better but most of the team has room for improvement imo. And if he doesn't pick up his game a bit in the next few months, I won't be THAT thrilled, but for now I am not going to complain all the time. As for A$$holik and his bad penalties, perhaps fans 'expected' that but that doesn't really mean it was a GOOD quality of his game. In fact, one could argue it interfered with his production or the team's production - so did his big mouth! I guess it really depends on where you analyze the player, on or off ice, or offense versus defense, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 MaddDog, all due respect, but Holik was a leader on the Devils and played hard nearly every night. He didn't lapse into la-la land for stretches of games in the regular season like Niedermayer did and does. Did Holik slump offensively, yes. Did he continue to win big faceoffs and crush people, yes. He continued to do what he was good at. Niedermayer, who can skate like the wind, passes well and handles the puck great, doesn't use those skills all the time. It bites. Now I will not detract from Niedermayer's good performances in the playoffs during his career, but don't we have a right to ask why he can't be an excellent player during the season? What if all the Devils waited until there was something on the line to jack up their play? Would the Devils make the playoffs? Come on, MaddDog, what about the guy who you named your screen name after? He doesn't wait for the playoffs to turn it up a notch. Thank goodness for that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Jerrydevil: MaddDog, all due respect, but Holik was a leader on the Devils and played hard nearly every night. Well you're half right IMO; generally I agree he played hard but I don't buy this leader stuff especially after last year when he made a spectacle of himself whining and pointing fingers all year long, and then it took him all of what three games to whine about his role with the Rangers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Absolutely Jerry, agree 100%. The Devils can't afford to have these guys who wait around to "turn it up a notch" anymore. Those years are over and the results of them are clear: 1 Cup, which they almost blew because of inconsistent play, a Cup Final loss which all of them blew because of inconsistent play. I'm tired of that kind of play. MadDog, on the one hand you lay into the "bipolar" nature of the team, then excuse Niedermayer for his rampant no-show-ism on the offensive side of the puck? Which is it? Is Niedermayer apart from the team? Niedermayer is not worth as much to us as he is to other teams because the Devils have 2 defensemen who play a similar style to him, who by the estimation of this board have outperformed him. Some teams have only one player, other teams have no players. These types of players are in high demand. The Gooden, Strawberry, etc. comparison is unjustified. Niedermayer actually doesn't have the talent, it just appears as if he does. If he had the talent to pass and shoot at full speed, he'd be the next Bobby Orr. He doesn't have that talent, but he still has the talent to be a force on offense, steady on defense, and put up 50-60 points a season. Lou has challenged him this year by acquiring Oleg Tverdovsky, Scott, by the estimation of this board, has done little to cement his spot as a Devil. If Niedermayer's our best player, we can forget about the playoffs. I don't see where this legend of Niedermayer being a great playoff performer exists, except for in the Rangers-Devils 97 series, where I believe he did nothing but get boatloads of chances that he couldn't capitalize on (might be faulty memory, but I remember being frustrated with #27), the 2000 playoffs, where he scored some excellent goals but came up with only 2 assists, whereas Leetch could put up 20 in a playoff year, but where was he in 2001, and where was he last year? Rafalski has outperformed Niedermayer in the playoffs since 2001. By the judgement of this board, Rafalski is outperforming Niedermayer now. By the judgement of the NHL, puck rushing defensemen are a luxury that are often the last piece to a Cup winning team (Blake, Malakhov, the Wings are always picking up guys like this). But the Devils are clearly not close to making a Cup run, not when they're having traditionally 3rd and 4th liners being their best scorers. So, do we really need all three of these guys? I still haven't heard a convincing case for the Big 3. Niedermayer will be gone when he's a UFA regardless of what happens from now until then. So, if anyone claims 'the future' as a reason to keep him, that's not a good reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 MaddDog, I agree with JerryDevil on Holik. He didn't take many nights off. Niedermayer is a guy with a lot of ability who sometimes disappears. That's the way it is with him for some unknown reason. Holik is more of a gruntwork kind of player. He goes to the corners, plays physical and grinds it out agitating opponents. Well, I wonder why this thread was reopened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaddDog Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 To those who responded: I'm really NOT excusing Niedermayer's play. But I felt Red did have a good point about Holik not always getting the job done. We can agree to disagree on that one, only because I have NEVER seen A$$holik as a very good leader and and taking lazy. dumb penalties can be seen as lack of effort/production imo. Or his 20 games without goals. I agree with Hasan regarding what he said when it comes to leadership. As I said, if Niedermayer isn't playing well months in advance, I will be concerned, but I'm not gung-ho about trading him like some of you are. Jerry, I guess I've accepted Niedermayer, flaws or not. I don't always like how he plays but the same can be said for a good % of the NHL. Nieds is never going to be Bobby Orr, and people should stop expecting him to be. To be honest, it seems like the dudes with the superb work ethic like Mad Dogs and Brylins are the aberration, NOT the rule. I don't expect perfection every game, but an honest effort most of the time. These guys are humans, not robots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilsrule33 Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Z-man said it perfectly. Just like Moss and Strawberry, Nieds has so much damm potential and he won't reach it. He is one of the fastest players. But he doesn't use it. Remmeber in the 1995 playoffs when he went end to end missed the net picked up his own rebound and scored. That was the Niedermayer we need. The one who didn't give up the puck to a Ducks player to make it 2-0. Even though we came back to win it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msweet Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Did he score another OT goal tonight? How many is that in the past year or so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Man Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Did he score another OT goal tonight?How many is that in the past year or so? Oh yes, this makes up for everything. Barely putting a puck in a mostly open net. Great point, MSweet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilsrule33 Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 I have to agree with Z man. He got the game winning goal but it means very little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insanity_gallops Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 So... can this guy ever do anything right in your eyes? Yes, the OT winner might not have been the greatest goal, but it was a GWG nonetheless. Had he missed it, the Sabres could have come back and beaten us. To recap: if he'd missed scoring, he'd be called worthless. When he scores an OT winner (his 5th in the past 2 years, I believe), he's called "lucky" for scoring. Is that accurate? Yeah, the guy took a bad penalty that lead to a goal against us, but I think he made up for it with the game winner.... (This coming from someone who's neither a pro- nor anti-trade Nieds fan) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmCanadian27 Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 It wasn't a pretty or fantastic goal, but it was a shot that went into the net instead of the goalie or some other place. Does every goal and win have to be an amazing one for some of you to appreciate it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Unless a goal is incredibly fluky, it's still a goal... once you start analyzing how a player scores goals, all objectivity is lost.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Heck Triumph, even if the goal IS incredibly flukey, it's STILL a goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJayDevil Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 I don't think Nieder is going anywhere anytime soon. He had a 2 point night. Raf with a 1 pt night, as well as Tivo. Big 3 were a good piece of the puzzle why we won tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Man Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 Unless a goal is incredibly fluky, it's still a goal... once you start analyzing how a player scores goals, all objectivity is lost.. I admit, judging how a goal is scored is kind of petty. But so is using one goal as a reason to argue against the fact that Niedermayer hasn't played up to par all year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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