msweet Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 LINK March 2, 2005 -- GARY Bettman's leader ship of the NHL might in itself be an oxymoronic concept, but the fact of the matter is that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundstrom Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 no larry, the players have no leverage. they can not play and not get paid or play under the owners rules. those are their two options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'7' Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 (edited) yes they do have leverage, by forcing the league to go with scabs, the NHL will collapse after the trial run. Then the league will then need to negotiate in good faith. The same idiots who like trap hockey might like scabs too, but how long can they survive with 2,000 fans a game? after all, it is the NHL who is calling this latest meeting, Bettman is crawling back to Goodenow, hopefully with a fair offer this time so we don't even have to get to scabs. Edited March 2, 2005 by '7' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwindog Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Do you really beleive the stuff you write ^7^? Or is it just fun? You just selected the weaker side and enjoy defending them - attempt to rise to the challange of finding merit to their gripes and logic to their methods? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'7' Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 since when is it about chosing the perceived "weaker side"??? it's about being on the side of who's right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MantaRay Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 No offense "7" but your take on this seems a bit delusional. The owners are in the drivers seat here. If the NHL plants the "scab"seed now, more and more non-millionaire players will cross the line for the sake of their families well before the season starts. More and more will come after the season starts. This isn't a real union, its agents and a handful of millionaire players that seem to be the biggest obstacles. Most players just want to play. Its seems pretty silly that players are going to foresake millions to play in Europe or the new WHA. The players will continue to factionalize amongst themselves while the owners can afford to wait and give up less and less as time goes by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundstrom Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Do you really beleive the stuff you write ^7^? Or is it just fun? You just selected the weaker side and enjoy defending them - attempt to rise to the challange of finding merit to their gripes and logic to their methods? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> i'm starting to think the same thing. i almost think you're not even being serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pezzer Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 but how long can they survive with 2,000 fans a game? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The players seem to think it can last forever this way. As long as salaries keep going up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSkirt Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 The Euro-leagues cannot support the number of players, or their salaries for any extended period of time. So that is not a real option for them. So some of them yes, but not a significant percentage of the players. And the WHA, hah ! Let's see that get off the ground first before calling it an option. The NHL players have no true leverage. The NFL used replacement players for 3 weeks before the striking NFL union capitulated. Why? Because fan reaction to the replacements was not as bad as the players had predicted, and they got scared. Expect the NHL players to react accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 The NHL is no great shakes these days, but let's not pretend that the WHA and European hockey are serious threats. Despite its struggles, the NHL and the Stanley Cup are powerful brands - they're THE brands in hockey. I've got news for some folks ... those brands are bigger than the players, bigger than any rules changes, bigger than most of the stuff we talk about. The NHL is not doomed. It's got its work cut out for it to improve the product and win back loyalty, but win back loyalty it will. Bet on it. There's a product to sell and there's still a market for NHL hockey, despite what the doomsayers would have you believe. It's not the NFL, it's not MLB, but that doesn't mean the NHL is nowhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I see 7's point. The NHL needs to make a deal with the players because they are the product. The NHL has lost a lot of credibility already by becoming the first sport to lose an entire season. They might not even have a TV contract. I expect ESPN will wisely pull out now leaving the NHL scrambling. By continuing this lockout and insistance on only getting a deal on their terms, they risk losing more than fans. The sponsors are essential for the league's survival. That's why Bettman approached yesterday's meeting the way he did and hinted that he wanted to get Goodenow back to the table. He knows that he needs to get a fair deal done that will satisfy both sides and end this madness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSkirt Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I don't agree that the player's are the product. Not for me at least. Some ask me why I prefer College Football over the NFL. And it's not that the NFL is bad. In fact it is greatly talented players, with more specialized talent than the College ranks. But for me, I love College becuase the players DO leave. Love em or hate em, they are gone after 2/3/4 seasons. They play their hearts out for those years & I love them for that. I love the teams, the towns, the fans, the trophies etc. Again the product is the game, the rivalries, the traditions built over decades of playing, not the individuals. To me the product of the NHL is all that plus the Stanley Cup. I will cheer on the Red & Black regardless if its Niedermayer, or Joe Schmo. now, I may not be typical of all fans but when the NHL does resume play we will see what portion of the NHL fan base is attracted to it for what reasons. Some will be for the individual players, some because it is supposed to be the most elite players in the world, some because of the Cup, some becaise there is a team in their town etc etc. There is no one ingredient that applies universally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Blueskirt, you can't compare college sports to professional sports. Athletes are on scholarships to compete. Professionals get drafted by teams and are under contract. In a sense of the rivalry aspect and historic argument you presented, you're right. But without a quality product, who is going to pay those prices to watch? The product was barely surviving with good talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I see 7's point. The NHL needs to make a deal with the players because they are the product. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't quite see it that way. The players are part of the package. But without the NHL, the players are an inferior product, no matter how good they are. Take an NHL team's uniform off them, and their appeal takes a big hit. These players need the NHL. They can make more money there and achieve greater notoriety there. I don't think that's changed at all. That's why the pressure is on the players. They want to wear NHL uniforms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Derek, players come and go. Their careers are short. The pressure is on them to make their money and get their name on the Cup. That's what it's all about for them. If there's scab hockey, enough good NHL players will realize this and break ranks. It's inevitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSkirt Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Blueskirt, you can't compare college sports to professional sports. Athletes are on scholarships to compete. Professionals get drafted by teams and are under contract. In a sense of the rivalry aspect and historic argument you presented, you're right. But without a quality product, who is going to pay those prices to watch? The product was barely surviving with good talent. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Excellent convo we got going ! No flaming, Il ove it. I will watch the NHL when it returns with or without replacements. And I completely agree with you -- the cost of the tix, now that is the owners dilemma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Jerry, the players are giving in on cutting salaries and on a cap. The owners have already essentially won. But it's not "good enough" for them. My impression is that they have to have it all and totally screw over the union. Do you think that's the best way to get an agreement with the guys who put the fans in the building? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I see 7's point. The NHL needs to make a deal with the players because they are the product. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't quite see it that way. The players are part of the package. But without the NHL, the players are an inferior product, no matter how good they are. Take an NHL team's uniform off them, and their appeal takes a big hit. These players need the NHL. They can make more money there and achieve greater notoriety there. I don't think that's changed at all. That's why the pressure is on the players. They want to wear NHL uniforms. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The pressure has swung back and forth. There's no longer a 2004-05 season. The owners need sponsors to stick with them and the NHL needs a good TV deal. Something they don't have grasp of. By continuing this fight and employing replacement players, I don't believe that's going to help their cause. Essentially, you're correct that players come and go. But is the best strategy to have a league of scabs and see average attendances dwindle under 10,000 and lose even more revenue? Is it worth it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesterDevil Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Even if the league goes with scabs, they'll have Crosby and the other promising players in this years NHL draft to carry the league for a couple years until future star draft picks can come in and add their talent to the league. The players have half a leg to stand on, if that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 That's a good point, Derek. In order to stop the bleeding, the owners are probably feeling pressure to get a deal done. But as far as replacement players hurting the NHL's appeal to advertisers, I'm not sure, considering that I believe many, many NHL players would break ranks if it comes to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Even if the league goes with scabs, they'll have Crosby and the other promising players in this years NHL draft to carry the league for a couple years until future star draft picks can come in and add their talent to the league. The players have half a leg to stand on, if that. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The problem with what you said regarding Crosby is that without a new CBA by June, there will be no NHL Draft. That means no influx of new young talent entering the world's best league. That's another reason for the owners and union to try to get together and hammer out a new deal. They need to establish a rookie cap. But unless they workout their differences, that won't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'7' Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 they both need each other, we can leave it at that. The players resolve is being underestimated. Yes it's a huge union compared to what the owners have. Yes some will probably break ranks if there is scab hockey in 05-06, but those that do will be difficult to distinguish from the non nhlers being hired. If Bettman is following the NFL model in 87, he's in for another rude awakening. NHL fans and NFL fans are a different breed, so don't expect history to repeat itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizDevil30 Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 NHL fans and NFL fans are a different breed, so don't expect history to repeat itself. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, NHL fans don't suffer from ADD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I don't think that's what he meant Liz. Was talking more in terms of how much broader the fanbase is for the NFL compared to the NHL. Face it. The NHL is small potatoes compared to other sports. I believe Clown had a good line about it when I was talking to him. I can't think of the word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizDevil30 Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 (edited) I don't think that's what he meant Liz. Was talking more in terms of how much broader the fanbase is for the NFL compared to the NHL. Face it. The NHL is small potatoes compared to other sports. I believe Clown had a good line about it when I was talking to him. I can't think of the word. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I do face it Derek and I don't care if it is a clique sport. The problem is the players don't want to face it. That the smaller fanbase means by definition less tv revenue and less revenue in general. Small pie, smaller pieces. If the NFL was able to implement a cap system, albeit higher cap because bigger pie, what on earth makes them think the NHL won't be able to get one? I also think all Americans suffer from some form of ADD. Edited March 2, 2005 by LizDevil30 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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