LizDevil30 Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 (edited) Well Red, if that's how you feel then how do you know Elias isn't using illegal sticks? He did it two years ago. So I guess by your definition, Elias is a cheater.I don't subscribe to that theory. If he can get away with it, so be it. The onus is on the teams to call for the stick measurements. I don't put Jagr in the same category as Bonds, but Derek, cheating is wrong. A wrong is a wrong, whatever it may be and not only if you get caught. I guess I hold pro athletes to a high standard, they are paid very well not only for ability but for integrity. Like it or not, they are role models and that should never be taken lightly. What kind of message are they giving kids. Winning is all that matters and cheat if you have to, it's okay as long as you don't get caught? No way that's just bs. Elias cheated when he uses an illegal stick too. Edited March 9, 2006 by LizDevil30 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 So cheating is OK aslong as you donot get caught?? IS it OK to cheat on exams in school?? Is it OK to cheat people out of money?? where does it end??Derek I hope when its time for you to have kids and you are coaching some youth team you change your tune... Comparing a game to that is pretty extreme Red. Baseball players have used greenies for years. Did you ever complain? If I had children, I would teach them the right values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redruM Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 Comparing a game to that is pretty extreme Red. Baseball players have used greenies for years. Did you ever complain?If I had children, I would teach them the right values. Derek sorry for my ignorance.. but what is a greenie??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I don't put Jagr in the same category as Bonds, but Derek, cheating is wrong. A wrong is a wrong, whatever it may be and not only if you get caught. I guess I hold pro athletes to a high standard, they are paid very well not only for ability but for integrity. Like it or not, they are role models and that should never be taken lightly. What kind of message are they giving kids. Winning is all that matters and cheat if you have to, it's okay as long as you don't get caught? No way that's just bs.Elias cheated when he uses an illegal stick too. I used to agree about athletes being role models but not anymore. Too many don't want that responsibility. The "real role models" are parents. That's who I look up to. Derek sorry for my ignorance.. but what is a greenie??? Boosters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redruM Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 I used to agree about athletes being role models but not anymore. Too many don't want that responsibility. The "real role models" are parents. That's who I look up to.Boosters. I agree about players being role models.. but lets be hinest many kids still look up to them.. as for greenies or boosters... did not know if i did iwould have complained to someone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizDevil30 Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Derek, parents are at a big disadvantage. It is very hard to impress upon your kids honesty, when the stars they want to emmulate cheat. Little children look up to parents. Teenagers in their desire to be their own people look beyond parents. You really can't understand how difficult it is for parents unless you are one. Being an athlete is 100x easier. As for them not wanting to be role models. Too bad, you want the job? Setting a good example is part of the deal. You could impress upon your child how wrong it is too cheat but if they participate in sports where winning is the mantra, they will look to the athletes behavior. I'm sure Jagr's mom told him cheating was wrong too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundstrom Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 the thing with the sticks is that MANY players use illegal sticks during the 1st two periods of the game when you can't check them. this has been going on since I can remember. this is nothing compared to steroids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redruM Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 the thing with the sticks is that MANY players use illegal sticks during the 1st two periods of the game when you can't check them. this has been going on since I can remember. this is nothing compared to steroids. Is that true?? you are not allowed to question stick in the 1st 2 periods??? thats just stupid!!! why is it nothing compared to steriods?? does it not give the shooter a defintie advantage??? similar to the effect of steriods?? right?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizDevil30 Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Is that true?? you are not allowed to question stick in the 1st 2 periods??? thats just stupid!!!why is it nothing compared to steriods?? does it not give the shooter a defintie advantage??? similar to the effect of steriods?? right?? Well it was pointed out earlier, that steriods have been an illegal controlled substance in the US since 1991. Sticks with illegal curves are not an illegal controlled substance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteyNice Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 It's not simillar to the effect of steroids at all. Steroids change your whole body. You could say it is close to using a corked bat but even then it is a hard comparison since it is obvious when a stick is illegal while a corked bat is impossible to tell at first glance. Using an illegal stick is cheating like speeding on the Parkway is breaking the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redruM Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 It's not simillar to the effect of steroids at all. Steroids change your whole body. You could say it is close to using a corked bat but even then it is a hard comparison since it is obvious when a stick is illegal while a corked bat is impossible to tell at first glance. Using an illegal stick is cheating like speeding on the Parkway is breaking the law. but the effect is the same.. steriod user unfair advantage corked bat unfair advantage illegal stick unfair advantage... Sorry Liz I know you agree w/ some of what i say but i make it very difficult for you to agree w/ me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizDevil30 Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 FYI big difference in the penalties too. A speeding ticket isn't a felony. http://www.gdcada.org/statistics/steroids.htm Laws and Penalties for Use The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 placed anabolic steroids into Schedule III of the Controlled Substances Act. Under this legislation, anabolic steroids are defined as any drug or hormonal substance chemically and pharmacologically related to testosterone (other than estrogens, progestins, and corticosteroids) that promotes muscle growth. The possession or sale of anabolic steroids without a valid prescription is illegal. Simple possession of illicitly obtained anabolic steroids carries a maximum penalty of one year in prison and a minimum $1,000 fine if a first drug offense. The maximum penalty for trafficking is five years in prison and a fine of $250,000 if this is the individual Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizDevil30 Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 but the effect is the same.. steriod user unfair advantagecorked bat unfair advantage illegal stick unfair advantage... Sorry Liz I know you agree w/ some of what i say but i make it very difficult for you to agree w/ me... Well yes Red, both are cheating. But some forms of cheating are worse than others. Like with drugs, pot and heroin are illegal, but most folks wouldn't freak out over pot use, but heroin use is considered a major deal. Yet they are both listed as controlled dangerous substances, like steriods. Yet if an athlete used pot before a game, you wouldn't accuse him of cheating, unless you accused him of throwing the game. I have to say, coaches are to blame. My son plays roller hockey and some of the crap that goes on in those games that the coaches not only condone but tell the kids to do, makes me sick. I tell my son it's wrong, but to him the coach is god. I'm just mom and I don't understand the way the game is played. So I do think athletes/coaches should be honest, not held to a higher standard, just the same standard the rest of us are held to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteyNice Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Red, c'mon, be honest. You are just trying to be belligerent right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwindog Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 (edited) the thing with the sticks is that MANY players use illegal sticks during the 1st two periods of the game when you can't check them. this has been going on since I can remember. this is nothing compared to steroids. Corking a bat equals using an illegal stick. It's cheating and you dont expect to get caught... but even then an illegal stick is right out there in your face. If you all can't guess I've contemplated key devils players using perfomance enhancing drugs from my post earier in this thread you're... well... well... then I guess I'm just more subtle than I realize Illegal sticks = wiseass cheating Performance enhancing drugs = compulsion, illness red -- by your strict interpretation anyone who gets a 2 minute minor is as bad as a 'roid head. Both are against the rules right? ]Oops Petey already used my analogy too! i got excited and had to post before I finished the thread Edited March 9, 2006 by Darwindog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizDevil30 Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Red, c'mon, be honest. You are just trying to be belligerent right? I think since Red doesn't have Freisen to vent over, he's lost and he needs another outlet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice dog Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 imagine if babe ruth had been on steroids...he would have had like 1500 homers... bonds needs to be exiled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizDevil30 Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 imagine if babe ruth had been on steroids...he would have had like 1500 homers...bonds needs to be exiled. Seriously. Look what he accomplished on beer and donuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwindog Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Do I have to repost now? will I get lost in the shuffle? How is a 2 minute minor -- a 5 minute MAJOR any different than being a ';roid head by your standard red? BOTH are against the rules -- so one has a punishment built into the game -- it's cheating to give yoiur team an unfair advantage Difference being ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice dog Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Seriously. Look what he accomplished on beer and donuts. don't forget hot dogs and bourbon... i was thinking the same thing...lol! i have bonds rookie baseball cards and he was really skinny you would not even recognize him! i no longer care about baseball, but to those who do the steroid issue is a disgrace to the legacy of the sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 All three cases are different. With Bonds there's pretty much empricial proof that he used 'roids. That said there was no baseball law that prohibited it so while morally he was a cheater since 'roids obviously had a big effect on his production (look at his HR's per at bat before '99 and after), by the same token using letter of the sport's law he wasn't doing anything wrong. With Sosa there's never been any real proof he did 'roids other than the fact he hit and looked like the incredible shrinking man last season, but same thing applies to him as applies to Bonds, it wasn't legislated out of the game when/if he did it. Yes he also used a corked bat at one point but I don't think it proves he was doing it his entire career. If anything he might have done it because he was starting to slide as a player and feared looking bad without the juice - 'if' he was on it. With Jagr, I don't know, using the curved stick seems like a benign form of cheating like a little extra rosin or pine tar on the baseball. I don't think it's ever had any big effect on his performance even 'if' he used illegal sticks his entire career (and I think I remember one other incident before this where he did get caught, it might have even been against the Devils although it wasn't this year). If you could prove to me Jagr is a 50-point player with a permanent legal stick I might buy him being in the same park as Sosa and Bonds, but I don't think that's true. From a hockey standpoint, padding the equipment like Giggy Puff and Snow, etc did to me is far worse, it artificially enhanced goaltenders' ability to stop the puck every time. But some people would argue even that's like the rosin ball or the curved stick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satans Hockey Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 (edited) Comparing taking steroids to having a stick that is illegal because it's curved too much is one of the dumbest arguements I have heard in a long time. Edited March 10, 2006 by Satans Child Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annabelle Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 There is a difference...Jagr's hair has to be the absolute worst of them all..even though some have more than others... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizDevil30 Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 All three cases are different.With Bonds there's pretty much empricial proof that he used 'roids. That said there was no baseball law that prohibited it so while morally he was a cheater since 'roids obviously had a big effect on his production (look at his HR's per at bat before '99 and after), by the same token using letter of the sport's law he wasn't doing anything wrong. Is major league baseball another country? Does the UN know about them? I don't understand how an illegal substance can be ignored by basebore because they don't prohibit it? Do we need visas do go to basebore games? Oh wait we do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruins4777 Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 (edited) there are plenty of players who "cheat with in the game" by dodging and getting away with calls. by your theory anybody who dives is cheating. there are different levels of cheating. if you really want to blast players for an illegal stick you are saying over a quarter of the league are in the same league as guys who use steroids to bulk up their body and make them stronger than a natural human being on the verge of breaking an amazing record. it doesn't even remotely compare. maybe bobby hull and stan mikita should be taken away from the hall of fame now for their banana curves? it's like saying a person got away with cheating for one word on a 20 point vocab test, but another person cheated his entire way through college and to a job. you can't put them on the same level. Edited March 10, 2006 by bruins4777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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