maxpower Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 Chemistry can be developed. This is a pointless debate regardless. I will predict that Zach finishes his career with a decent amount of points more than Elias when his career is over. not that kind. for the couple of years they clicked, they did some things that I still can't comprehend. it was almost ESP level. lol, you'll still see Elias try to make some of these plays to this day with some other linemate and it turns into a disaster more often than not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutral Zone Trap Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 I would love to see what Parise could have done on a line with Sykora and Arnott at that time. I am sure he would have had similar results. Other than numbers, what can you base an opinion on? Just observation? Numbers in this case are the best indicator. I hope the Jay-Z question was sarcastic... I do indeed base my opinion on observation, and in my eyes, Elias is a better player. I was not being sarcastic, who is Jay-Z ? it sounds like some kind of cleaning liquid but I'm sure it's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevsChamps3x Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 Mike Mottau needs to not see the ice anymore. he finished the year +24 last year, hes at 0 this year, enough said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils Pride 26 Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 Chemistry can be developed. as mp said, not like this (1:30) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prucenterrules Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 The last 2 games the opposing team has NOT beaten the Devils. We have beaten ourselves. We have come out flat and let them score and we have made terrible decisions like what Fraser did vs phoenix. Yes the opposition has capitalized on these mistakes but it's not as if we have been terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 (edited) max has just been laying low, waiting for this poor stretch so he can bash lemaire and the rest of the team. well, here it finally is, go hog wild! the team is really beginning to feel the loss of zubrus, clarkson, and martin. which is to say that the rest of the team is playing like garbage. max will alternately argue that the regular season is irrelevant and that colin white shouldn't be out front on the power play - well of course he shouldn't be. to me that's an indirect criticism of the team's play in front of the net on the power play. Edited January 17, 2010 by Triumph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils Pride 26 Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 tri, what do you have to say for bergfors being played with the scrubs? Neither Pando nor Nieds is going to start finishing the chances he is making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundstrom Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 tri, what do you have to say for bergfors being played with the scrubs? Neither Pando nor Nieds is going to start finishing the chances he is making. not that i was asked, but this is a reason why zubrus' return is so important. while not wishing to revisit the "is zubrus a 2nd line center" argument, unless the devils trade for one, he's the guy they've got. and he makes things round out much better: parise-zajac-langenbrunner elias-zubrus-bergfors rolston-neidermayer-clarkson pandolfo-pelley-mccammond/pikareinnen/zharkov Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 tri, what do you have to say for bergfors being played with the scrubs? Neither Pando nor Nieds is going to start finishing the chances he is making. i don't think bergfors has been playing particularly well, and there's going to be an odd man out the way our lines shake out now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils Pride 26 Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 I respect your opinion sundstrom thanks for the response. I'd still like to see Elias at center when everyone gets back. Also, I wouldn't be upset if the 3rd line was Bergfors Zubrus Clarkson. They cycle the puck about as good as anyone as a line. But that means Zharkov would be playing the second line. Parise Zajac Langs Rolston Elias Bergfors Zharkov Zubrus Clarkson Nieds Dean Pando im not too sure if he's playing that bad right now, and if thats the case he will never pick it up if he's stuck with those guys on the 3rd line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 those lines aren't happening - elias just isn't going to cut it as a center, he's too weak on faceoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sokar Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 those lines aren't happening - elias just isn't going to cut it as a center, he's too weak on faceoffs. it seems like our whole team is weak at faceoffs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge18 Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 it seems like our whole team is weak at faceoffs Zajac is 51.2% on the year and Nieds is 50.2% not awful. Elias was running at a 39.6% clip, totally unacceptable for a team that wants control of the puck. McAmmonds 45.8% is at least an improvement there, despite Dean's problems of late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxpower Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 max has just been laying low, waiting for this poor stretch so he can bash lemaire and the rest of the team. well, here it finally is, go hog wild! the team is really beginning to feel the loss of zubrus, clarkson, and martin. which is to say that the rest of the team is playing like garbage. max will alternately argue that the regular season is irrelevant and that colin white shouldn't be out front on the power play - well of course he shouldn't be. to me that's an indirect criticism of the team's play in front of the net on the power play. I bash Lemaire when they win for the most part. the guy has his moments where he shows he's a dinosaur lost in the 90's. when is Parise allowed in front of the net. if he wants to make a statement about the play in front of the net, put your best scorer in front of the net, which has not happened much this year. you don't put Colin White and Andrew Peters in front of the net, even if the puck comes to them, there's nothing they can do. they just block out the sun. well, that would be great if it was a 5 on 3 and a man was free. problem is, they aren't, and you're just playing 4 on 4 with a big goof in front of the net. that's not much of a PP. at least I'm honest. you'll be all over Lemaire sometime in April or May after declaring your love for him all season after bashing him all of the prior summer. and yes, once you have your playoff spot locked up, real or defacto (like us now), the regular season means *nothing*. I'm looking for signs of a good playoff team, I really don't see any other than Marty, and he'll be 80 games deep by the time the playoffs roll around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxpower Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 and Elias can play C, but he can't take any important faceoffs. which kinda limits who can play on his wing, because the wing would have to take them. but if Zajac can get thrown out of 20% of his faceoffs or whatever ungodly amount it is he gets thrown out of, Elias can definately get thrown out of them too... or not take them at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 I bash Lemaire when they win for the most part. the guy has his moments where he shows he's a dinosaur lost in the 90's. when is Parise allowed in front of the net. if he wants to make a statement about the play in front of the net, put your best scorer in front of the net, which has not happened much this year. most misguided criticism fails to consider alternatives. right - well, remember when you were all over lemaire for putting on the joke unit a few months back? how does that work? you obviously want parise at the front of the net - he can't be on the half-wall. great. now who do you put on the half-wall? i guess elias, when he was healthy. okay, great. now who do you put on the 2nd power play unit? that's right - the misfit toys who can't ever score. you don't put Colin White and Andrew Peters in front of the net, even if the puck comes to them, there's nothing they can do. they just block out the sun. well, that would be great if it was a 5 on 3 and a man was free. problem is, they aren't, and you're just playing 4 on 4 with a big goof in front of the net. that's not much of a PP. that's true, the goalie not seeing the puck has no effect. while obviously putting peters or white out there is terrible, no one has been able to do their job. at least I'm honest. you'll be all over Lemaire sometime in April or May after declaring your love for him all season after bashing him all of the prior summer.and yes, once you have your playoff spot locked up, real or defacto (like us now), the regular season means *nothing*. I'm looking for signs of a good playoff team, I really don't see any other than Marty, and he'll be 80 games deep by the time the playoffs roll around. i was all over lemaire until he said and did the right things. yes, the regular season means nothing. i don't see any good signs other than a +30 goal differential, 6th in the league, with a team that would probably be around +35 to +40 if it had been even decently healthy over the last month and a half. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxpower Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 most misguided criticism fails to consider alternatives. right - well, remember when you were all over lemaire for putting on the joke unit a few months back? how does that work? you obviously want parise at the front of the net - he can't be on the half-wall. great. now who do you put on the half-wall? i guess elias, when he was healthy. okay, great. now who do you put on the 2nd power play unit? that's right - the misfit toys who can't ever score. that's true, the goalie not seeing the puck has no effect. while obviously putting peters or white out there is terrible, no one has been able to do their job. i was all over lemaire until he said and did the right things. yes, the regular season means nothing. i don't see any good signs other than a +30 goal differential, 6th in the league, with a team that would probably be around +35 to +40 if it had been even decently healthy over the last month and a half. check their ES differential and get back to me. don't forget to stop and check out the Sharks from last season to see where my concern lies. teams that get alot of points in the regular season, but really are only slightly above average at even strength. stop their PP, and they don't have a whole lot. as for screening the goalie, who gives a sh!t when you have a man to cover the other 4 players on the PP? like I said, it's a good idea on a 5 on 3 because someone *has* to be free. why is anyone going to respect White or Peters in front of the net. if the puck fell at their feet, they still wouldn't score. and who cares about the second PP unit. if you don't have enough to make two good units, you throw everything at one. I don't even understand why you'd be defending Elias playing on the second unit when if he played the halfwall position, the first unit would work. instead, Parise is there, and when it's not a 1 on 1 situation, he has all of the creativity of cardboard.... meanwhile, Parise and his 3 PP goals are stuck out there while offensive forces such as Colin White are in front of the net. nobody liked Gio playing on the halfboards, but Parise, it's cool for some reason. never mind that he's equally useless, and since Parise is the super-sized version of Gionta, it's a bigger crime. 3PP goals from Parise. even Johnny Mac couldn't accomplish that. I mean, do you think Pelley taking Bergfors' position was a good idea... when Elias was still on the bench? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils Pride 26 Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 tri you said it yourself in your blog, regular season goal differential is less meaningful for us because of the fact that backup goalies dont play in the playoffs. Brodeur makes it look pretty good now since he plays about every damn game. If Bordeur played a normal amount of games or the other starters played as much as him it would be different. This is not even looking at how we are so dominant in 4v4 ot/SO which does not exist in the playoffs. Not only that, does your goal differential stat include the 'fake goal' a team is awarded for winning the shootout? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 (edited) check their ES differential and get back to me. don't forget to stop and check out the Sharks from last season to see where my concern lies. teams that get alot of points in the regular season, but really are only slightly above average at even strength. stop their PP, and they don't have a whole lot. wow so you mean teams who lose their best ES defenseman struggle at even strength. shocking revelation. i have the devils at +16 at even strength which is really not bad at all, and is probably top 10 in the league. this in addition to the fact that they draw more penalties than they take, which is still a good skill to have. and who cares about the second PP unit. if you don't have enough to make two good units, you throw everything at one. I don't even understand why you'd be defending Elias playing on the second unit when if he played the halfwall position, the first unit would work. instead, Parise is there, and when it's not a 1 on 1 situation, he has all of the creativity of cardboard.... meanwhile, Parise and his 3 PP goals are stuck out there while offensive forces such as Colin White are in front of the net. you care about the second PP unit, you said so yourself. do you need me to go back and dig up your words, or will you just admit that you bitched about it before? i'd rather have parise there - in the playoffs, when it matters. for now i'll stick with colin white being there. nobody liked Gio playing on the halfboards, but Parise, it's cool for some reason. never mind that he's equally useless, and since Parise is the super-sized version of Gionta, it's a bigger crime. 3PP goals from Parise. even Johnny Mac couldn't accomplish that.I mean, do you think Pelley taking Bergfors' position was a good idea... when Elias was still on the bench? of course not, but it's the regular season which doesn't matter, so i don't see why it's essential that lemaire optimize every single shift, rather than doling out messages to his players that certain ones have to play better. Edited January 17, 2010 by Triumph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 tri you said it yourself in your blog, regular season goal differential is less meaningful for us because of the fact that backup goalies dont play in the playoffs. Brodeur makes it look pretty good now since he plays about every damn game. If Bordeur played a normal amount of games or the other starters played as much as him it would be different. This is not even looking at how we are so dominant in 4v4 ot/SO which does not exist in the playoffs. Not only that, does your goal differential stat include the 'fake goal' a team is awarded for winning the shootout? i'm too lazy to go through and see what the even strength goal differential would be if brodeur were playing a more normal amount, but i'd guess somewhere around +10 - that's still not horrible, given the injury situation that new jersey has faced all season long. the devils were without one of their top ES players in elias for half the season and without paul martin for a majority of the season. unless the devils are the 80s edmonton oilers i wouldn't expect them to be hugely + at even strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxpower Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 (edited) just as a comparison point, here's some ES +/-'s of Eastern teams (and Chicago) NJD - 83-72 +11 WAS - 121-85 +36 CHI - 113-77 +36 PIT - 112-96 +16 PHI - 87-83 +4 (hey, look, it's the Ducks to our Sharks) BUF - 85-75 +10 (would also not be booking road reservations for June) ATL - 101-109 -8 OTT - 95-106 -11 NYR - 80-88 -8 MTL - 81-94 -13 NYI - 86-96 -10 BOS - 83-85 -2 who looks elite and who doesn't. and ours has probably been on a uptrend until the last week or so. we're 18 games up adjusting for the SO, and we're only a +7 better than a team that is even .500 adjusting for the SO. Edited January 17, 2010 by maxpower Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 (edited) does that have empty net goals taken out - it must, because otherwise i don't see how it's only +11 so wow, we're only 3rd in the conference, let's just all panic and obviously this stat should indicate just how much luck there is in the playoffs. and wow the SJ comparison is so bad i don't even know where to begin. one place is with evgeni nabokov, though. Edited January 17, 2010 by Triumph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxpower Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 does that have empty net goals taken out - it must, because otherwise i don't see how it's only +11 so wow, we're only 3rd in the conference, let's just all panic and obviously this stat should indicate just how much luck there is in the playoffs. 5v5 + 4v4 ES. empty netters are technically ES but aren't. so this wouldn't count 6v5 goals for either. you're missing the point, we've played at a nearly unsustainable clip and are a weak + considering our record. we push a tiny, tiny edge unless our special teams are great. if we played Philly now in a playoff series, I'd say we were a slight favorite, the Pens, we'd be a slight dog, the Sabres would be a coin-toss, and Washington would destroy us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxpower Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 does that have empty net goals taken out - it must, because otherwise i don't see how it's only +11 so wow, we're only 3rd in the conference, let's just all panic and obviously this stat should indicate just how much luck there is in the playoffs. and wow the SJ comparison is so bad i don't even know where to begin. one place is with evgeni nabokov, though. no, it isn't. they had a great record last season and finished +10 ES. the Ducks were a +11 ES. not exactly surprising in retrospect now, is it? the series was a coin-toss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils Pride 26 Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 Still don't think we are built for the playoffs though. Barring a trade of course. Defense is too slow in their own zone, can't move the puck. Hopefully Oduya will start playing hockey again when Martin gets back. My god he is stinking up the joint without him. Between that and no forecheck this team is in trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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