Derek21 Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Hasan put together a nice post on the Devils slow start. Rebuilding is tough and takes time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themightyall Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Hasan put together a nice post on the Devils slow start. Rebuilding is tough and takes time. Interesting article. I saw someone say, I forget who, but about pulling the goalie during the Caps game was based on analytics. Analytics are useful for a great deal of things and love the they are making it a very strong part of the organization. But I worry sometimes about whether they are questioning the numbers or not. With so many stats that can be created, I feel like they can say whatever you want them to say if you have a motive for it. Sometimes basic logic is the best stat. The article hit a big pet peeve of mine too about "another coach that was fired could be going on to win the cup." Lou fired so few coaches and when he did he was well in the right to do so. Deboer needed to go. Julien was not going to win the cup with the team, the only problem I had was the Lou took so long to make the switch. Why act like Julien was the reason the Bruins won and use the logic to say that if he stayed coaching our team that he would've won with the Devils? He's not the reason we won or lost just like he wasn't the reason the Bruins won or lost for the most part. He's just Bill Dauterive in real life, in more than just looks. Him going in as the fullback for Hank Hill to block helped, but it was the all-state rb that scored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redruM Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 . Lou fired so few coaches and when he did he was well in the right to do so. Seriously? I think LL oversaw 19 coaching changes in 28 years, that's crazy... he was good at building teams, terrible at picking coaches!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roomtemp Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 If any coach has time to learn on the job its this one. I didn't agree with him pulling the goalie during the start of the PP during the Nashville game but I agree with being generally more aggressive in pulling the goalie closer to 2 min left then just 1 min left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteyvegas51 Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 When a team cannot score (going on 10 yrs now) you have to do whatever it takes to change that. Of course, the problem is that we don't have players to handle the puck. But you have to try anything at any time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eaglejelly Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I'm sure that as soon as we have figured out when to pull the goalie, we will be a cup contender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themightyall Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Seriously? I think LL oversaw 19 coaching changes in 28 years, that's crazy... he was good at building teams, terrible at picking coaches!! How many were coaching changes and how many were firings? You'd be surprised how few the latter were when we were winning cups. He's been great at picking coaches, just unlucky with them. Furthermore, the average lifespan of a coach is like 3 years. So with him not firing and a very short lifespan, I think Lou did pretty well. As for the other comments. Players have jobs to do just as the coach. We are already behind the 8 ball with the roster, we don't need a coach to shank a scratch as well. We can always go back to that this team isn't very good, but it is what it is right now. We still need to hold everyone accountable be it the first line, the fourth, the d, the goalie, the coach or the gm. If we have a fourth line that doesn't belong in the NHL, I'll say it because it's not the kind of team we want. The same with the coach. If we were a perfect team without a first line, we'd be in a much better spot than we are now. But we are missing so much more than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 (edited) I'm sure that as soon as we have figured out when to pull the goalie, we will be a cup contender That was so not the point of a blog that only specifically talked about the last two games where that came into play, and I did defend Hynes on his lineup decisions. But seeing those kind of reckless pull the goalie choices right out of the gate is kind of alarming tbh. If he did it with three minutes left 5-on-5 I'd have no issue with it. But doing it the last thirty seconds of a PK with three minutes to go and right away on a PP is pretty reckless for reasons I already went into in the piece. How many were coaching changes and how many were firings? You'd be surprised how few the latter were when we were winning cups. He's been great at picking coaches, just unlucky with them. Furthermore, the average lifespan of a coach is like 3 years. So with him not firing and a very short lifespan, I think Lou did pretty well. As for the other comments. Players have jobs to do just as the coach. We are already behind the 8 ball with the roster, we don't need a coach to shank a scratch as well. We can always go back to that this team isn't very good, but it is what it is right now. We still need to hold everyone accountable be it the first line, the fourth, the d, the goalie, the coach or the gm. If we have a fourth line that doesn't belong in the NHL, I'll say it because it's not the kind of team we want. The same with the coach. If we were a perfect team without a first line, we'd be in a much better spot than we are now. But we are missing so much more than that. Lou had plenty of firings when the team was winning. Ftorek in 2000 (which I agreed with). Larry in 2002 which I didn't. Julien in 2008 which I didn't and felt was the height of arrogance from Lou and the spoiled fans who wanted him out - at least until Lou kept pick #29 in 2012, THAT became the height of arrogance. I didn't love Julien but the guy had us in the division lead for crying out loud, he deserved at least ONE playoffs and dollars to donuts they only fired him cause they finally got a yes from the guy they talked to for eighteen months per JVB (Sutter). Even Ftorek had one playoff loss before Lou ****canned him. Yes they had other retirements/quittings under strange circumstances but pre-lockout Lou definitely had an itchy trigger finger and when you fire a guy in the first year of a contract that's a pretty bad indictment of your own choice. Edited October 15, 2015 by NJDevs4978 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 That was so not the point of a blog that only specifically talked about the last two games where that came into play. Lou had plenty of firings when the team was winning. Ftorek in 2000 (which I agreed with). Larry in 2002 which I didn't. Julien in 2008 which I didn't and felt was the height of arrogance from Lou and the fans who wanted him out - at least until Lou kept pick #29 in 2012, THAT became the height of arrogance. I didn't love Julien but the guy had us in the division lead for crying out loud, he deserved at least ONE playoffs and dollars to donuts they only fired him cause they finally got a yes from the guy they talked to for eighteen months per JVB (Sutter). Even Ftorek had one playoff loss before Lou ****canned him. Yes they had other retirements/quittings under strange circumstances but pre-lockout Lou definitely had an itchy trigger finger. On topic: really enjoyed your article Has. Very well-written. I think Hynes has be allowed to grow in his first NHL job...the good news is, if he makes some mistakes along the way or takes some chances, it's not really hurting anything. Off: I've mentioned it before, but it still amazes me how Ftorek (who I did have the intelligence to be a good NHL coach) managed to completely piss off three different NHL teams he coached to the point where they literally hated the guy and simply refused to play for him (this is more true with the Devils and the Bruins, but Gretzky pretty much couldn't stand Ftorek from Day 1). Supposedly, some of had to with riddles and sayings that he was fond of that a lot of players thought were just annoying and absurd. Someone here posted a story about, as the Devils' coach, he wrote "Wm" on a blackboard, and spent several minutes waiting for one of his players to figure out what that meant. After what seemed like an eternity (with several players in exasperated "WTF is he talking about mode?!"), Ftorek proclaimed "That's the big 'we' and the little 'me'". Apparently there were many moments like that. As we look back on Lou's tenure and get a better grasp on some of its faults (of course it was still pretty damned sweet, and I wouldn't trade it for anything), there were times where I think some guys might have gotten a little too comfortable here, and knew that the coach's head would be on the chopping block before theirs. They really didn't play as hard as they should have for Larry Robinson in 2002 and 2005-06, and Marty's book pretty much comes right and says that he and his teammates didn't take Kevin Constantine seriously once he replaced Robinson. If the story about Madden shooting a puck at Julien was true, it doesn't sound like they respected him much either...though the guy would clearly later prove he was capable of leading a team to a Stanley Cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted October 15, 2015 Author Share Posted October 15, 2015 If you're basing pulling a goalie off analytics, you got issues. It should be instinct. Talk about overthinking. I hate analytics. All you have to do is pay attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 (edited) If you're basing pulling a goalie off analytics, you got issues. It should be instinct. Talk about overthinking. I hate analytics. All you have to do is pay attention. This is utterly ridiculous. Jacques Lemaire is a terrific coach - Hall of Fame head coach. He also pulled his goalie much later than is optimal (and sometimes even not at all). It's exactly the kind of thing you don't trust to your gut, because your gut is panicky and prone to making decisions based on big events. Fact is, it's harder to score 5 on 6 than most coaches think, and it's also harder to score 6 on 5 than coaches seem to think - pulling the goalie earlier than coaches customarily do is a good strategy. I bet if you asked NHL head coaches how often goals are scored with the net empty some of them would be wildly off from the reality. Hynes has been in two unusual spots - he's pulled the goalie while shorthanded and while on the PP. At least 80% of his goalie pulls in the future will not involve either situation. I'm hoping he sticks to his guns about being aggressive with goalie pulling, especially when down 2 goals. Edited October 15, 2015 by Triumph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derlique Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 If you're basing pulling a goalie off analytics, you got issues. It should be instinct. Talk about overthinking. I hate analytics. All you have to do is pay attention. I dont get what you're saying. Hockey is a fluid game and analytics aren't everything, of course. The best you can really do is use probability in these situations, which is where analytics come into play. There have been countless studies done that show that pulling the goalie earlier gives you a better chance to score Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 (edited) I dont get what you're saying. Hockey is a fluid game and analytics aren't everything, of course. The best you can really do is use probability in these situations, which is where analytics come into play. There have been countless studies done that show that pulling the goalie earlier gives you a better chance to score But how many of those situations were with special teams involved? Even Tri admits probably very few empty-net situations will involve special teams. That's where you can't always go blindly by okay THIS is the spot in the game to pull the goalie as if a buzzer goes off with three minutes left without any context. Edited October 15, 2015 by NJDevs4978 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derlique Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 But how many of those situations were with special teams involved? Even Tri admits probably very few empty-net situations will involve special teams. That's where you can't always go blindly by okay THIS is the spot in the game to pull the goalie as if a buzzer goes off with three minutes left without any context. I'm not 100% sure but I think pulling the goalie there is still the correct statistical play. I'll try to find the article I read that backs that up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecoffeecake Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Not the point of the article, but I'm really getting tired of this narrative of season ticket holders somehow being the only people with valid thoughts and opinions about their team. This is something mostly unique to hockey, and you hear it from ownership down to fans. I've never heard an executive of an MLB franchise say something like "this is what I'm hearing from the fans, but most of them are non season ticket holders". Yes, season ticket holders are valued very highly by team executives in every league, and rightfully so. It's great that STHs have the time and financial capacity to make that kind of commitment, but the team belongs to the community, not to the 9,000 of you. This guy on one hand goes after a strategy he doesn't like by saying "well most people who feel that way don't have season tickets", and precedes that with "well, there are other things I want to watch and do, so I haven't really watched the team and unloaded a bunch of my tickets i don't want". Plenty of non STHs never miss a game, sneak radios and headphones at work and events, have played the game their whole lives, and were born and raised here with this team. The people who treat the handful of games they actually are able to make like an extra Christmas, you're gonna tell them their opinions don't mean what yours do because you go to 25 games a year and get to go to your events? I'm just tired of hearing it. Not necessarily with our fans and ownership, I'm just tired of that narrative in the NHL community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 (edited) Again I was specifically referring to the fact that most people who cry for TANK TANK TANK, it's easier for them to do so because they're generally more detached, not as easy to do that when you have season tickets and pay money to watch live. I was not making a commentary on fans vs. sth's as a whole. If any season ticket holder wants to tank and is willing to 'donate' their money to the team in the meantime, more power to you but human nature is if you're paying money for something you're usually not going to be calling for the team to lose games just to get into a weighted lottery. And yes I'm prioritizing baseball playoffs over games 2 and 3 of the hockey regular season, I guess that makes me a bad fan because I sell tickets to Tuesday games when I have other things to do this month anyway and even with that I'm going to around 25-30 games and will watch most of the other games once baseball's done. Edited October 15, 2015 by NJDevs4978 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I'm not 100% sure but I think pulling the goalie there is still the correct statistical play. I'll try to find the article I read that backs that up It has to be way closer to correct than doing what most NHL coaches do. You're down 2 goals late and killing a penalty. Your odds of winning the game are way less than 5%, your odds of tying also less than 5%. Most of the time the result of pulling the goalie 'early' down 2 is that the other team will score to go ahead 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) Wow NJDevs4978 you sold Tuesday night tickets and you call yourself a "fan"? When your other favorite team is in the "playoffs"? What a poser. If this isn't sarcasm you're going on ignore for this. Then again these kind of personal attacks are why I generally stay away from the actual hockey portion of this board now and why I'd almost prefer Derek didn't post my stuff here, people like you and the lack of moderation quite frankly make it a cesspool at times Yes my favorite team in another sport is playing more important games, that makes me a poser. I guess in your world there can only be one team and one sport where you have allegiance and you'd rather watch a Devils preseason game over a Cowboys Super Bowl. You're acting like I'm like rooting for the Rangers when the Devils are out of it, THAT'S a poser. Edited October 16, 2015 by NJDevs4978 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilsrule33 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 If this isn't sarcasm you're going on ignore for this. Then again these kind of personal attacks are why I generally stay away from the actual hockey portion of this board now, people like you and the lack of moderation quite frankly make it a cesspool at times Yes my favorite team in another sport is playing more important games, that makes me a poser. I guess in your world there can only be one team and one sport where you have allegiance. You're acting like I'm like rooting for the Rangers when the Devils are out of it, THAT'S a poser. Ha..and I was going to say post your articles here for more eyeballs and good discussion, but your point for not was kind of made above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Ha..and I was going to say post your articles here for more eyeballs and good discussion, but your point for not was kind of made above. It's embarassing really how a couple of throwaway lines in a long piece can invite flaming here. I mean I'm fine with disagreeing with the content and having different opinions but my people just can't wait to get the attack dogs out here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted October 16, 2015 Author Share Posted October 16, 2015 This is utterly ridiculous. Jacques Lemaire is a terrific coach - Hall of Fame head coach. He also pulled his goalie much later than is optimal (and sometimes even not at all). It's exactly the kind of thing you don't trust to your gut, because your gut is panicky and prone to making decisions based on big events. Fact is, it's harder to score 5 on 6 than most coaches think, and it's also harder to score 6 on 5 than coaches seem to think - pulling the goalie earlier than coaches customarily do is a good strategy. I bet if you asked NHL head coaches how often goals are scored with the net empty some of them would be wildly off from the reality. Hynes has been in two unusual spots - he's pulled the goalie while shorthanded and while on the PP. At least 80% of his goalie pulls in the future will not involve either situation. I'm hoping he sticks to his guns about being aggressive with goalie pulling, especially when down 2 goals. There were instances where Lemaire waited too long to pull goalies. He was unconventional. The pulling goalie early is due to Roy who had success. It depends on situation. Possession is key. Of course, you want to be aggressive. But it largely depends on if you possess the puck and can be in attack mode. On the PP, the opponent can ice the puck. So, go 6 on 4 if necessary. In the Devils situation, I would've waited before pulling. Give the PP some time to see if they can get it done. Then if it comes down to it go for the 2-man advantage. Shorthanded, you have to wait before pulling. It depends on where the face-off is or if you have control and of course how much time is left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted October 16, 2015 Author Share Posted October 16, 2015 Wow NJDevs4978 you sold Tuesday night tickets and you call yourself a "fan"? When your other favorite team is in the "playoffs"? What a poser. Plenty of fans sell tickets during the season. If you're a STH, you can pick and choose which games you want to see. We're two weeks in. I'd say prioritizing the Mets who don't get here that often is the right call. Should be a great NLCS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 The pulling goalie early is due to Roy who had success. This isn't true, research on the subject was done and well known before Roy started coaching in the NHL. I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Think that was just a little sarcasm on Martyisth3be3st's part. I don't think he was being serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) You could be right CR...it's just the poster in question has a rap sheet of hyperemotional posts here and many of the posts here do get antagonistic in general. I do apologize if it was sarcasm, poorly timed as it was. Edited October 16, 2015 by NJDevs4978 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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