mfitz804 Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 6 minutes ago, Puckbuster said: I agree, he does have a pattern and the ones that pay for it are his clients. They miss out on millions for a couple years just to make a couple million later and with another team. If, Bratt signed a multi year worth 5.5m two seasons ago, he would still be in his prime to earn 10+m for another 7. Bratt, made a bad choice not signing early like Jack and Nico, both are making millions and are young enough to earn another 7 years worth million. Pretty sure the numbers will work out in Bratt’s favor and he will be making numerous extra millions of dollars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicomo Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 (edited) He obviously meant 2nd lowest lol. Edited November 27, 2022 by Nicomo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puckbuster Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 1 hour ago, mfitz804 said: Pretty sure the numbers will work out in Bratt’s favor and he will be making numerous extra millions of dollars. You don’t know that. But we all know he could be making millions now. Also, it’s not just a bet on how good he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puckbuster Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 On 11/23/2022 at 4:29 PM, mfitz804 said: It’s far more likely to me that he is a Swedish hardass and the Swedish players he represents know this and hire him for that reason. Maybe my view is skewed because I negotiate for a living, and I know how hard I am to negotiate with and know my clients are 100% aware of it, down with it, and hire me because of it. No one likes dealing with a hard ass. Most business relationships end because of it. Just look at all his players moving on to other teams and for really not much more money than they would have received two years earlier. Bratt is losing in the end. As a negotiator you should understand this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, Puckbuster said: No one likes dealing with a hard ass. Most business relationships end because of it. Just look at all his players moving on to other teams and for really not much more money than they would have received two years earlier. Bratt is losing in the end. As a negotiator you should understand this. I don't know if like he said mfitz has his view skewed because he does the same thing for a living so sort of indirectly takes it personal when we bash an agent doing the same thing lol But threatening and bringing negotiations to arbitration as blackmail EVERY TIME is just a dick move and a proof that you just can't get it done in normal fashion. Meaning he most likely isn't great at his job or has unrealistic expectations. And like you said it can really end relationships once it gets there, not worth risking at all. Most agents get it done without that, he's just a problematic agent clearly. Just the fact that Tom never even for a counter offer to his long-term offer shows you that the agent is clearly playing a game without offering much flexibility. And again, he's known for being extremely difficult to deal with. That's what we're seeing. And i just read this on hfboard and i agree with this Quote The agent doesn't just represent the player, he advises the player. As an attorney, 90% of the time my client is going to listen to my guidance on an issue in negotiation. It's the same thing for an agent. If Persson is in his ear telling him that signing a long term deal at a certain AAV now is a bad career decision, Bratt probably isn't going to push back and override him. Edited November 27, 2022 by SterioDesign Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 11 hours ago, Puckbuster said: You don’t know that. But we all know he could be making millions now. Also, it’s not just a bet on how good he is. No, pretty sure we do know that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 10 hours ago, Puckbuster said: No one likes dealing with a hard ass. Most business relationships end because of it. Just look at all his players moving on to other teams and for really not much more money than they would have received two years earlier. Bratt is losing in the end. As a negotiator you should understand this. Except that you are wrong and athletes are less loyal than you believe they are. They almost always follow the money. Bratt is about to get paid, a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 48 minutes ago, SterioDesign said: Just the fact that Tom never even for a counter offer to his long-term offer shows you that the agent is clearly playing a game without offering much flexibility. There was just a quote from Fitz or Bratt in the last couple weeks (which I can’t find right now) that confirmed there was a long term offer made by the Devils, and a long term offer made by Bratt. Term wasn’t the issue, it was dollars. So I’m not sure that is even accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 1 minute ago, mfitz804 said: Except that you are wrong and athletes are less loyal than you believe they are. They almost always follow the money. Bratt is about to get paid, a lot. Money is not everything in life. Many players followed the money and their lives because a lot more stressful and it went downhill. Just look at Clarkson or all the players who left us for more money in NY. In hindsight not many would say that it was the best move for their careers. We're going to be one of the best team in the league for years. If Bratt walks for more money somewhere, it's really not a good move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, mfitz804 said: There was just a quote from Fitz or Bratt in the last couple weeks (which I can’t find right now) that confirmed there was a long term offer made by the Devils, and a long term offer made by Bratt. Term wasn’t the issue, it was dollars. So I’m not sure that is even accurate. Well if that's true then i was wrong about that but i remember Fitz saying at some point that he never got a counteroffer. Either way bringing this to arbitration is never a good thing. Out of the last 10-15 players who went to arbitration. Only one remained with the team after that. The fact that this appears to be his #1 move (that he goes for every single time) to get leverage is really sh!tty. Edited November 27, 2022 by SterioDesign Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 3 minutes ago, SterioDesign said: Money is not everything in life. Many players followed the money and their lives because a lot more stressful and it went downhill. Just look at Clarkson or all the players who left us for more money in NY. In hindsight not many would say that it was the best move for their careers. We're going to be one of the best team in the league for years. If Bratt walks for more money somewhere, it's really not a good move. It’s not everything, but in sports, guys have a history of chasing it even still. Maybe Bratt takes less money to stay here, maybe he doesn’t. Who knows. At the end of the day, that will probably be an option he has and we’ll find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 8 minutes ago, SterioDesign said: Well if that's true then i was wrong about that but i remember Fitz saying at some point that he never got a counteroffer. Either way bringing this to arbitration is never a good thing. Out of the last 10-15 players who went to arbitration. Only one remained with the team after that. The fact that this appears to be his #1 move (that he goes for every single time) to get leverage is really sh!tty. https://www.nhl.com/devils/news/fitzgerald-gives-insight-ahead-of-draft--feature/c-334835142 Confirmed that Bratt was made an offer, whatever the order was. It seems to me from the quotes you provided previously, and Bratt, that even if he did bring guys to that point, deals were made to avoid arbitration. I don’t really have a problem with it, multiple guys file for arbitration every year. Getting it settled before is always a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 (edited) 16 minutes ago, mfitz804 said: https://www.nhl.com/devils/news/fitzgerald-gives-insight-ahead-of-draft--feature/c-334835142 Confirmed that Bratt was made an offer, whatever the order was. It seems to me from the quotes you provided previously, and Bratt, that even if he did bring guys to that point, deals were made to avoid arbitration. I don’t really have a problem with it, multiple guys file for arbitration every year. Getting it settled before is always a good thing. Where does it say in that article that Bratt's side made a counter offer? https://www.northjersey.com/story/sports/nhl/devils/2022/08/03/jesper-bratt-nj-devils-agree-to-contract-extension-avoid-arbitration/65390473007/ Quote The Devils have offered a long-term deal for months to Bratt and his agent, Joakim Persson, suggested by sources and confirmed by Perrson himself. That offer went unsigned and, according to ESPN's Greg Wyshynski, was not countered by Bratt's side.Aug 3, 2022 Again, august 3 is the day Bratt signed, so nothing happened after that? Also can you agree that when 100% of an agent's negotiation are extremely complicated and gets to the point it's going to arbitration, every time. That it's not just.... being a hard negotiator. That's literally like if ANYTIME your wife doesn't get what she want she pulls the "well you won't be getting any sex until i get it". Every. Time. That's just bad faith and sh!tty. A handful of guys among hundreds file for arbitration every year. Extremely rare. Yet that agent brings it up to arbitration 100% of the time. In just a handful of negotiations. The pattern he has in his very short stint as an agent is undeniable. Can you admit that? Kevin Weeks reported he believes Fitz offer was 8 years at “$6.75-$7+”. Which is pretty fair for a guy who had one real good season. And we're talking about a guy who brought negotiations to the point his client missed training camp after as a 30ish points player. Wtf. Everything is pointing out at this guy not being reasonable. Edited November 27, 2022 by SterioDesign Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, SterioDesign said: Yeah but can you agree that when 100% of an agent's negotiation are extremely complicated and gets to the point it's going to arbitration, every time. That it's not just.... being a hard negotiator. That's literally like if ANYTIME your wife doesn't get what she want she pulls the "well you won't be getting any sex until i get it". Every. Time. That's just bad faith and sh!tty. A handful of guys among hundreds file for arbitration every year. Extremely rare. Yet that agent brings it up to arbitration 100% of the time. In just a handful of negotiations. The pattern he has in his very short stint as an agent is undeniable. Can you admit that? Kevin Weeks reported he believes Fitz offer was 8 years at “$6.75-$7+”. Which is pretty fair for a guy who had one real good season. And we're talking about a guy who brought negotiations to the point his client missed training camp after as a 30ish points player. Wtf. Everything is pointing out at this guy not being reasonable. No, I don’t agree with that. It’s a tactic, not necessarily in bad faith. It’s pushing things to the last minute, to try to get the most money. Whether that’s “being reasonable” or not, I’m not sure. But, if he keeps pushing contracts to that point and then settling, at some point it will no longer be a credible threat. That is what makes it a sh!tty tactic. At some point teams will just say “ok, sure, I’m REALLY afraid of arbitration…”. I also disagree about whether not taking a $6.5-7m deal is “unreasonable”, when Bratt is now poised to take an $8m+ (maybe even $9m) long term deal. He bet on himself and in all likelihood, won the bet. Edited November 27, 2022 by mfitz804 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, mfitz804 said: No, I don’t agree with that. It’s a tactic, not necessarily in bad faith. It’s pushing things to the last minute, to try to get the most money. Whether that’s “being reasonable” or not, I’m not sure. But, if he keeps pushing contracts to that point and then settling, at some point it will no longer be a credible threat. That is what makes it a sh!tty tactic. At some point teams will just say “ok, sure, I’m REALLY afraid of arbitration…”. A tactic is something you use when the time is right. If that's your go-to every time and can't get it done without threatening it. That's not just a tactic. And again, that's his pattern, it went to that extent every single time, with ALL his clients. So that's dealing with different players and GMs. He's the one common factor in all these. You appear to always answer to this like it's an isolated incident but it's not. also i added a part to my last post. Where does it say in the article you posted that bratt's side made a counter offer? it was reported on the day he signed the deal that there was no long-term counter offer from them. So not sure where you saw that. Also this is pure speculation but Tom addressed that the rumours about Bratt being on the trade block certainly wasn't coming from their side. So this is 200% speculation. But looking at Joakim's track record, i wouldn't be surprise if he actually started those rumours. Edited November 27, 2022 by SterioDesign Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 1 minute ago, SterioDesign said: A tactic is something you use when the time is right. If that's your go-to every time and can't get it done without threatening it. That's not just a tactic. And again, that's his pattern, it went to that extent every single time. It’s still a tactic, it’s just a sh!tty tactic because he uses it all the time. I addressed that and you missed it. 1 minute ago, SterioDesign said: also i added a part to my last post. Where does it say in the article you posted that bratt's side made a counter offer? it was reported on the day he signed the deal that there was no long-term counter offer from them. So not sure where you saw that. I said, it may not have been a counter offer because we may have offered first. If Fitz offered $7m and Bratt’s guy then asked for $9m, we may not have responded beyond $7m. The link I provided confirms only that a long term offer was made, not the order in which the offers were made. It could be that there was no counteroffer because the $7m offer was already on the table. Again, I addressed that in my previous posts, you missed it. 4 minutes ago, SterioDesign said: A tactic is something you use when the time is right. If that's your go-to every time and can't get it done without threatening it. Also this is pure speculation but Tom addressed that the rumours about Bratt being on the trade block certainly wasn't coming from their side. So this is 200% speculation. But looking at Joakim's track record, i wouldn't be surprise if he actually started those rumours. Wouldn’t shock me if that was true. It also wouldn’t shock me if it was entirely media speculation, because that’s what they do when an RFA is not signed. How many times has Timo Meier been on the trade block? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 1 minute ago, mfitz804 said: It’s still a tactic, it’s just a sh!tty tactic because he uses it all the time. I addressed that and you missed it. I said, it may not have been a counter offer because we may have offered first. If Fitz offered $7m and Bratt’s guy then asked for $9m, we may not have responded beyond $7m. The link I provided confirms only that a long term offer was made, not the order in which the offers were made. It could be that there was no counteroffer because the $7m offer was already on the table. Again, I addressed that in my previous posts, you missed it. Wouldn’t shock me if that was true. It also wouldn’t shock me if it was entirely media speculation, because that’s what they do when an RFA is not signed. How many times has Timo Meier been on the trade block? Well it's reported that Tom made a long-term offer for months. Wasn't accepted and no counteroffer was made. And it was brought all the way to arbitration. And it was reported that Devils wanted long-term and Bratt's side wanted short term. If true that the offer was 8x7ish. (According to Weekes). It's very close to what he should be getting after one good year and close to what other guys in the team are making. How can an agent truly look at his client and go "yeah... that's not a fair deal. Let's push for a short deal so that you may get even more), im really not sure that's good advices. That on top of him bringing ALL his negotiations to the wire and his cliens changing teams. I really see nothing suggesting he's a good agent putting what's best for his client as a priority. Arbitration is less than ideal for anything involved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 6 minutes ago, SterioDesign said: Well it's reported that Tom made a long-term offer for months. Wasn't accepted and no counteroffer was made. And it was brought all the way to arbitration. And it was reported that Devils wanted long-term and Bratt's side wanted short term. If true that the offer was 8x7ish. (According to Weekes). It's very close to what he should be getting after one good year and close to what other guys in the team are making. How can an agent truly look at his client and go "yeah... that's not a fair deal. Let's push for a short deal so that you may get even more), im really not sure that's good advices. That on top of him bringing ALL his negotiations to the wire and his cliens changing teams. I really see nothing suggesting he's a good agent putting what's best for his client as a priority. Arbitration is less than ideal for anything involved Like I said, there was just a statement in the last couple of weeks that Brad’s team did make a long term proposal. I just can’t seem to find it at the moment. It was definitely mentioned on this board, but I can’t seem to remember what thread. I’m not saying eight years at 7 million would have been unfair; but, Bratt took a gamble and perhaps he’s looking at an extra $10 million in an eight year deal. Are we at a point where we are going to say that a guy can’t take a gamble on himself? ask Aaron Judge if he thinks it was a good idea to turn down $213 million. Regardless of what he answers, it definitely was lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 4 minutes ago, mfitz804 said: Like I said, there was just a statement in the last couple of weeks that Brad’s team did make a long term proposal. I just can’t seem to find it at the moment. It was definitely mentioned on this board, but I can’t seem to remember what thread. I’m not saying eight years at 7 million would have been unfair; but, Bratt took a gamble and perhaps he’s looking at an extra $10 million in an eight year deal. Are we at a point where we are going to say that a guy can’t take a gamble on himself? ask Aaron Judge if he thinks it was a good idea to turn down $213 million. Regardless of what he answers, it definitely was lol. Well i can't see how it's true cause it's been confirmed on august 3rd that no counter offer was made PLUS that Bratt's side really wanted a short term deal. So by everything reported it sounds like it was never on the table to accept one. The offer was there for MONTHS. And of course it may endup being a good gamble. But that's like the saying that a broken clock is right twice a day. You need to adjust to situations and he seem to be doing the same thing every single time. For the record i know Bratt will end up with more money in the end. But the way that agent is operating, it very well be on a different team. Cause he showed that they are totally willing to risk that. And i fvcking hate it. (if true) the offer Fitz made was very fair and not worth changing team and going through all that bullsh!t 3 times now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 Add to it that he had also just watch the team. Give Jack Hughes a nice long term deal, probably worth more than what Bratt was offered, and he hadn’t even had one big year. I can totally see a player in Bratt’s position, having led the team in scoring, saying what the fvck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 Just now, SterioDesign said: For the record i know Bratt will end up with more money in the end. But the way that agent is operating, it very well be on a different team. Cause he showed that they are totally willing to risk that. And i fvcking hate it. (if true) the offer Fitz made was very fair and not worth changing team and going through all that bullsh!t 3 times now That is correct, from a fan perspective. I hate it too. But, I understand how things work. The idea that Jasper should have locked into a long-term deal here for less money isn’t in his best interest. If he had been offered Nico or Jack money, then I would say we have something to talk about. The fact that he was offered figure that is probably significantly lower than he is worth is also part of the equation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puckbuster Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, mfitz804 said: Except that you are wrong and athletes are less loyal than you believe they are. They almost always follow the money. Bratt is about to get paid, a lot. No, I’m not wrong. You are wrong. Negotiations are give and take and there’s just as much responsibility to get a deal done on the agent as there is the GM. Players want money and stability, hence, the NTCs that are handed out. You can believe you are right all you want, maximizing dollars is not the end all. On another topic, most stars negotiate their extensions well before their RFA years end. It’s a win-win for both sides. Players get paid more for the term past their RFA years and then can get an even bigger contract later, just like Hughes and Nico will, and what Gaudreau and MacKinnon did. Bratt is 24 and will be 25 when he negotiates his final RFA deal. If it’s for one more year then he gets paid at 26 for 7 years, ending when he is 33. Edited November 27, 2022 by Puckbuster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfitz804 Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Puckbuster said: No, I’m not wrong. You are wrong. Negotiations are give and take and there’s just as much responsibility to get a deal done on the agent as there is the GM. Players want money and stability, hence, the NTCs that are handed out. You can believe you are right all you want, maximizing dollars is not the end all. On another topic, most stars negotiate their extensions well before their RFA years end. It’s a win-win for both sides. Players get paid more for the term past their RFA years and then can get an even bigger contract later, just like Hughes and Nico will, and what Gaudreau and MacKinnon did. Bratt is 24 and will be 25 when he negotiates his final RFA deal. If it’s for one more year then he gets paid at 26 for 7 years, ending when he is 33. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t. We live in a world where most athletes do not finish their career with one franchise. It’s a rarity. Either way, if you are in any way arguing that Bratt isn’t in a position to lock into a long term deal for significantly more money than he was probably offered last season, I don’t know where you are getting that from. He took this one year deal as a bet on himself and so far that bet is paying off, big time. If he winds up around 100 points this year, he is going to get a huge long term deal, rather than being locked into a low value long term deal that pays him significantly less than he is worth, which is exactly what he would have gotten last season. If he signs another 1 year deal, it’s clear that he doesn’t want to be here long term. Edited November 27, 2022 by mfitz804 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puckbuster Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 1 hour ago, mfitz804 said: That is correct, from a fan perspective. I hate it too. But, I understand how things work. The idea that Jasper should have locked into a long-term deal here for less money isn’t in his best interest. If he had been offered Nico or Jack money, then I would say we have something to talk about. The fact that he was offered figure that is probably significantly lower than he is worth is also part of the equation. It doesn’t always work like that. It didn’t work like that for Crosby, Mallon, Pekka, Marchand, Bergeron, Benn, Kane, etc. The list for how you understand it, is much shorter. You are wrong, it doesn’t have to be that way. If Bratt simply wants to maximize his earnings, then I don’t expect him to be a Devil long term. Nico is their best all around player and Hughes is their star. No way is Bratt making more than either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puckbuster Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 15 minutes ago, mfitz804 said: Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t. We live in a world where most athletes do not finish their career with one franchise. It’s a rarity. Either way, if you are in any way arguing that Bratt isn’t in a position to lock into a long term deal for significantly more money than he was probably offered last season, I don’t know where you are getting that from. He took this one year deal as a bet on himself and so far that bet is paying off, big time. If he winds up around 100 points this year, he is going to get a huge long term deal, rather than being locked into a low value long term deal that pays him significantly less than he is worth, which is exactly what he would have gotten last season. If he signs another 1 year deal, it’s clear that he doesn’t want to be here long term. I am not saying he will not get more money signing a long term deal than what he is getting. What I’m saying is if he signs for 8 years he will not make more than Hughes and when that contract expires he will be over 30. If he signed 3 years ago like Nico that contract would expire at 28 and he would get another big contract that would pay him well in to his 30s. I can’t explain it any better than that. Ullmark is in the same situation. He’s 30 and on the 2nd year of a 5 year contract. It’s a risk to renegotiate at 34. Players just decline or get injured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.