SueNJ97 Posted December 31, 2002 Share Posted December 31, 2002 http://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/story/10413642...=10413642961300 Meanwhile, Sportsnet has learned that the New York Rangers are close to ending Bryan Trottier's brief career as coach. It is believed assistant coach Jim Schoenfeld is ready to step in as his replacement. Speculation is Trottier could be fired as soon as tonight if the Rangers lose against the Hurricanes. The Rangers have struggled all season long. Injuries have played a big part in that with the likes of Bobby Holik, Pavel Bure and goaltender Mike Richter dealing with their share of problems. The Blueshirts have just one win in their last six games and currently sit in 13th in the Eastern Conference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted December 31, 2002 Share Posted December 31, 2002 Heck, if Trotts were smart, he'd pay the Rangers to fire him. His good name has already been sullied enough by his association with the Rangers franchise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamode Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Right now I bet any Rag fans are ready to put the team out of it's misery. "Damn, is it April yet?!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Firing Trotts won't change the Rangers' fortunes. It's Slats that has to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Too bad for Trottier the Rangers are beating the Canes for like the nineteenth time this year Looks like he won't be put out of his misery tonight. The problem really does go deeper I agree. I think it's even deeper than Slats though obviously he has not done a good job in three years and if you're a Ranger fan, he's gotta go. Of course I hope they give him a lifetime contract tomorrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA Devil Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Firing Trotts won't change the Rangers' fortunes.It's Slats that has to go. Yeah, Slats hasn't livied up to expectations. But the person that MUST go if the Rangers are serious about getting better is Dolan. He's just awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Dolan is an idiot for keeping Slats around this long. But the owner isn't going anywhere. He needs to select a better GM. A GM that will make intelligent personnel moves, transactions, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 The Rangers could hire Conn Smythe as GM, and he would make similar moves. Sather has not made the wrong moves at Ranger GM. Did he mess up in not getting Jagr? I don't think so. Jagr hasn't played motivated all year, he should be 2nd in the NHL. Sather got Lindros and Bure at bargain prices. Where did Sather go wrong? I really don't see it. Not signing Chelios? Screwing up with Kloucek? It's hard to say. Frankly, the Rangers are never going to rebuild. If Slats gets one more year, I think they'll make the playoffs, if they can sign a top defensive defenseman (Aaron Miller?), and stay relatively healthy. Sather's problems have not been personnel so much as they have been coaching. Why Ron Low? Why Brian Trottier? That's been his problem. He should have brought in an experienced NHL disciplinarian like Burns, Hitchcock, or Keenan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Slats is a complete moron. His philosophy is all wrong. He's all about heavy spending for free agents. His big-money signings such as Holik and Kasparitis have gone nowhere. He abandons the concept of developing young talent. He picks up convicted rapists. He doesn't know how to select a coach. Slats is the source of all the Rangers' problems. BOOK IT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 SBT, EVERY Ranger GM is going to sign big name free agents. The fact is, the Rangers need the big names on Broadway. Smith did it, Sather is going to do it, whoever they hire will do it. Holik and Kasparaitis have gone wrong partly because of injury and partly because of misuse. Kasparaitis was the #1 guy in Pittsburgh and was passable. Now he's a #3 and playing awful. Holik should be getting Messier's minutes.. Bobby is finally beginning to look good in a Ranger uniform. As for convicted rapists, that's a totally different issue altogether. Tibbetts seems to have played well for the Rangers also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Why can't the Rangers build a team through the draft as Kovy suggests? Why must they lack patience? Why can't they see that purchasing big names has gotten them nowhere? That being said, you're right about any Rangers GM signing big name free agents. The key is: Why must they OVERPAY for them? Even the Rangers' budget is not infinite. By the way, Holik just took 4 undisciplined penalties in his last game and the Lightning scored a bunch of PP goals. He 'aint looking too good in a Rangers uni. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Tri, are you nuts? Where did Sather go wrong? That's a good one. Try checking out how many prospects play for our farm team. The cupboard's almost dry. And this crap about New York needing big name stars here is just that. Crap. Real Ranger fans want a Total Rebuild and would tolerate the losing a lot better if they knew there was an ACTUAL DIRECTION for the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Too bad real Ranger fans can't afford tickets to MSG. A real rebuild would have been possible under Neil Smith. Anyone remember his acquisition of the 4th overall pick, dealing 2 roster players for it? But Ranger fans didn't like Neil Smith, even after he had clearly converted to rebuild mode. So management canned him. Sather is the best GM in the game at making something out of nothing. But now he has something, and is clearly making nothing out of it. Slats has acquired scoring, grit, but he still hasn't gotten a coach that can make the defensemen play a system and the forwards do the same. The Rangers last game was last night against Carolina, and Holik looked good from what I saw of that game. I am convinced that if Sather had gotten the right coach for this team, they might not be in last place in the division. Instead he goes and hires a guy with 1 year minor league coaching experience. I am not sure why that happened. Eventually this strategy will succeed for the Rangers. They have acquired the grit and scoring they will need. Their third liners and fourth liners are usually the players who put all the effort into games.. they need better efforts from their top players, and their top players to also get healthy. When was the last time the Rangers developed a great prospect? Brian Leetch? Mike Richter? The names of players dealt out of New York before their careers began is endless.. even back to the 80s. This clearly isn't a new phenomenon. So the Rangers aren't about to throw away this strategy.. it is, after all, what got them the Cup in 94. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Actually, Lou is the best GM in the game at making something out of nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Tri, I disagree completely. You come off as bad as BFett (really KY) when you say what you did on '94. They won that year because the main core they put together was awesome. They had the best team. It also involved drafting and sacrificing some of those players for a Cup. People forget that without the foundation (Leetch, Richter, Kovalev and Zubov), there's no Cup. You and a lot of others like to infer that it was bought. This has to be the dumbest statement ever made. Did you conveniently ignore these other Ranger draft picks who were on the team and got dealt for grunt players? Darren Turcotte and James Patrick to Hartford for Steve Larmer and Nick Kypreos in a 3-team deal with Chicago. These guys weren't crap that Smith gave up. Both were good Rangers and two of my favorites. Patrick was my favorite defenseman. Not Leetch. But they decided Zubov made him expendable and so a very good guy was sacrificed. Turcotte also was a player I liked and felt sorry for because he didn't want to go. But Keenan was a jerk. I'll never forget the goal Turcotte scored to tie Vancouver with 1 second left in regulation in 93. Turcotte was never the same player after that deal. Once a 25-30 goal guy, he was hurt by not only that trade but by the morons in Hartford who gave up on him after a year. Sorry MD. Larmer played 2 years for the Rangers and was a key player in '94. Kypreos was a grinder who sometimes played on the 4th line. Another deal people leave out was the one that turned Tony Amonte into a superstar. When he was dealt for Matteau and Noonan, it wasn't a popular trade. Everyone knew Amonte was going to be very good. He had already proven himself in NY but Keenan hated him. So Amonte fell in the doghouse and Keenan got "his kind of players." It turned out well because Matteau and Noonan fit in and scored clutch goals. But really, in the end, could the Rangers have won with Amonte? I think so. Here's another deal that was made in our bad year where we missed: Doug Weight for Esa Tikkanen. Well, what do you know? It's another successful Rangers draft pick who carved out an outstanding career for himself out in Edmonton and now St. Louis. But Tikk was a very good player for us. Always a royal pain in the ass, he was an agitator who could score. His big shot was always dangerous. And another one: Todd Marchant for Craig MacTavish. There seems to be a theme here with all these deals. All involved great Ranger products! Will wonders ever cease? Even when the Rangers got Messier, they did so by dealing what was considered a top prospect at the time in Steven Rice. He never panned out for Edmonton. They also wheeled Bernie Nicholls (the same ass who wound up on Lou's Devils and cheapshotted Kovalev). So, in the end, the Rangers had superior talent that they sacrificed to win it all in '94. They have been paying for it ever since. Also Tri, what defensemen are you talking about on the current Rangers? They got none. Who's fault is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Slats is the underlying reason for the Rangers' ineptitude. Trots is just the poor unfortunate soul who will be the scapegoat. Ranger fans want Slats to go. Devil fans want Slats to stay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Derek, what is dealing Kloucek for Dunham? What is dealing Brendl for Lindros? What is dealing Lundmark for to be determined? Same thing as 94. It is this type of scorched earth, damn the torpedoes strategy that got the Rangers the Cup. Granato? Gagner? Hell, what about Middleton and Hodge? The Rangers have been dealing young talent before it was fashionable. Sather has been doing the same thing since he began in New York. Now while it is usually better to deal refined prospects like Amonte, who have superstar potential, rather than draft picks or unrefined talent, the Rangers have never been able to develop talent that stays on their roster. Period. The Blackhawks have never been able to do it either. So, thanks for proving my point far more eloquently than I could Derek.. only Kovalev and Zubov really survived the Smithist purges of the early 90s.. and even they didn't last that long after the Cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek21 Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Tri, I'm too tired to argue this further. Every team does it. The 95 Devils got Broten and ask any member how important he was. Even the Chambers acquisition was big. The 00 Devs got guys. I am not gonna bother naming 'em. The difference is your gm doesn't trade the most talented prospects away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-C- Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 A couple of comments... Triumph is absolutely correct, Low and Trottier are the wrong coaches for the Rangers. Aside from the injuries this year, the greatest problem has been discipline. Discipline in forwards coming back to help the D and discipline in staying out of the penalty box. Trottier has shown he is as inept as his predecessor in holding the players responsible and has added a complete lack of linemaking ability. PurpleKovy made the comment that without Leetch, Zubov and Richter there would be no 1994 Cup. However I could make the argument that those guys were there in 1992 also. The key to the 1994 Cup, IMO, was not only stellar play by Rangers draft picks but also a disciplinarian as coach (Keenan) and guys like Larmer, Noonan and Matteau who were "Keenan guys". And I will also point out that those draft picks occured in the 21 team NHL. Unless you are bad enough to get a Top 3 pick in todays 30 team NHL, the draft is a crap shoot. No one does a complete rebuild these days unless financially strapped. Just look at Detroit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-C- Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 .. only Kovalev and Zubov really survived the Smithist purges of the early 90s.. and even they didn't last that long after the Cup. What about Richter and Leetch? And I don't see how trading Kloucek and Brendl compares to Amonte and Weight. Brendl is barely hanging onto a roster spot with the Flyers and Kloucek is on Nashville's AHL affiliate. Lundmark is another of the overhyped prospects who were never that great to start with. Sather has kept the kids with any semblance of NHL talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bg. Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Kovy, how on earth can you slam all the deadline deals in 1994? Those were well worth it. Noonan, MacTavish, and Matteau did some rather big things from what I remember. That's like the Yankee fan saying, how on earth could the Yanks trade Eric Milton for Knoblauch? That deal worked out as well. If you want to get on Smith get on him for the Nordstrom trade, possibly for the Nedved/Zubov trade. If you want to get on Smith for dealing AK27, save you breath, Alex had 8+ seasons in NY, he played with #11, #99 and #16, he had shots out the wazoo. As for Slats, name me the great prospects he has traded? Your going to need to do better than Brendl and Kloucek. Brendl hasn't done squat, Kloucek is not the same player he was before he injured his knee. If you have your entire arguement hang on York-Poti, you might come up short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 C is right, a complete rebuild is unrealistic, not just for the Rangers, but any team. I disagree about the draft equaling a lottery. It's not a total crap shoot. There's some luck involved, but with talented scouts and good coaching at the minor league level, teams can give themselves a better chance of developing good NHL players. There's got to be some psychology involved with the Rangers' situation, too. Five years of losing hockey has gotta be difficult to overcome and I think you need good leadership -- in the front office, on the ice and behind the bench -- to break the trend. On the ice, I think Lindros and Bure are all wrong for the Rangers. I don't think they have it in them to be leaders of a turnaround. But I think Holik has it in him. I think they need a hungrier GM, even if it's a young unproven guy. Sather is as stale as the cigar smoke in his office. 1984 was a long time ago. I wonder about Trottier. He seems as bewildered as Ron Low. Like in the past few years, the mix is just not right. And I know this is a "popular" topic in the Rangers forum, but I'll mention it here. Trading Mike York was dumb. Yeah, they got Poti, but why not keep York and keep Berard? Poti and Berard the same type of player. Meanwhile, the Rangers depth at forward is laughable. That was terrible mismanagement of personnel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-C- Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Jerry, I said it at the time and I still think it's true... as soon as Bure was traded for, Sather knew he wouldn't be able to afford to re-sign Leetch. So Poti was aquired to eventually replace Leetch. And about the draft being a crapshoot, what I meant was that unless you are picking in the Top 3 or Top 5 some years, the #6 or #7 pick isn't that much better than the #10 or #15. So if you have the money top spend on players, why not try to do both? Back before 1992, missing the playoffs guaranteed you a top 5 pick. Now all it guarantees you is a top 14 pick. That's why complete rebuilds aren't worth it anymore. And with central scouting reports available, it is almost impossible for a franchise calibre player to slip beyond the #10 pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 C, you call it a crapshoot. Don't you think a good evaluator of talent, with a midround pick, should be able to pick out the best player? I think so, that's what a good GM and scouting team is for. And what do the Rangers do with their sixth-round diamond in the rough? Trade him to Edmonton for a player they didn't need. Like I said before, they already had Berard without trading any players! Poti isn't that much better than Berard. Watch the Rangers re-sign Leetch and blow your theory to smithereeens, LOL! Even when the Rangers got great picks in 1999 in the Cloutier/Savard deals, they screwed that up. I know, I know....that wasn't Sather. After Sather is fired, people will be saying, "That wasn't fill-in-the-blank, that was Sather." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-C- Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 A few things, Jerry. York is not a diamond in the rough. He is what he has been shown to be, a small 3rd liner who can fill in on a top line but who runs out of gas at mid-season. Edmonton will soon play Game 41, lets see how York does the rest of the way before labelling this deal a mistake. Also, I didn't say that a GM couldn't pick the best guy available mid 1st round. I said that the franchise players, like Jagr, don't slip to the mid 1st round anymore because the teams who don't have great scouting staffs can rely on central scouting. It becomes a crapshoot because the #15 pick often isn't much better than the #30 pick. So if you aren't in line for a top 4 or 5 pick, why not spend on players? Why not hold onto Berard? The Rangers had an escape clause in their deal, if they kept him this year they had to guarantee the next 3. Poti was the safer bet. And last time I checked, Sather's only 1st round pick (for the Rangers) thusfar is doing pretty well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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