poisler Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 I didn't read the whole post, so I apologize if anyone mentioned this. Lou was able to trade Souray because White was coming in and was ready to play. In his eyes they were the same type of player back then. If the Devs sign Souray I can easily see Lou trading White to get a forward. He probably still sees both of them as the same 'type' of player and White has good value in the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yort44 Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 You have to be joking. The kid has been in the league 3 years and had close 40 points the season before. Last year he was asked to be more defensive because of injuries and also did more PK than usual because Matvichuk/White/Oduya and Lukowich were hurt. Your very shortsighted as it is better to lock-up Martin NOW for $3 million per season, because if he continues to improve he will be worth much much more later. We differ on his upside. I see a good d-man with average numbers. I don't see All-Star unless he improves his strength, shot and demeanor. 3 years is plenty to see what somebody brings. If you think he's going to put up Souray type numbers with a shot like that, you're kidding yourself. D-men only score if they've got a blast from the point (MacInnis, Souray, Pronger, etc), engage in the play (Niedermeyer, Kaberle, Zubov, Lidstrom, etc.) or surrounded by studs where the point is left alone to shoot (Gonchar, Whitney, Campbell, Schneider, etc.). Where does Martin fit in the above? Right now, no place--that's my point. I'd prefer he trust his talent and engage more, then I'd be on the Martin bandwagon. I just don't see it happening, which is tragic given his God given abilities. So by trading one of our better overall defenseman for offense the Devils will play more 4-3 games instead of 2-1 games and all the extra shots on goal should lead to a less fatigued Marty? I tend to think the opposite would happen if the Devils traded Martin, you'd get a more fatigued Marty. Paul Martin is worth 1 or 2 goals per game? Wow, I hope he's not reading this or he'll be asking for $6mill next year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC Devs Fan Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Nieds was one of the best Dmen (offensively) in the league for years, to expect Martin to be that is like expecting Hale to be Stevens. Not going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MantaRay Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 We differ on his upside. I see a good d-man with average numbers. I don't see All-Star unless he improves his strength, shot and demeanor. 3 years is plenty to see what somebody brings. If you think he's going to put up Souray type numbers with a shot like that, you're kidding yourself. D-men only score if they've got a blast from the point (MacInnis, Souray, Pronger, etc), engage in the play (Niedermeyer, Kaberle, Zubov, Lidstrom, etc.) or surrounded by studs where the point is left alone to shoot (Gonchar, Whitney, Campbell, Schneider, etc.). Where does Martin fit in the above? Right now, no place--that's my point. I'd prefer he trust his talent and engage more, then I'd be on the Martin bandwagon. I just don't see it happening, which is tragic given his God given abilities. Paul Martin is worth 1 or 2 goals per game? Wow, I hope he's not reading this or he'll be asking for $6mill next year! He will continues to develop and will put up 40+ points a season that is not average. Defensemen take longer to develop and Martin is ahead of schedule. When you talk about putting up "Souray type" numbers I have to chuckle. Martin put up 37 points in his second year, it took Souray 7 season to break 30. Martin averages more points per season (.375) vs Souray (.367) already. Yes, Souray scored alot of meaningless goals, mainly because he puts his team in a position to play from behind (-28). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils731 Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Troy, you were suggesting downgrading the defense to upgrade the offense would make Marty less fatigued, I disagree. Higher scoring games where he takes more shots on goal would fatigue Marty quicker than a low scoring one where he isn't seeing as much action. I just pulled those numbers out of the air as an example of a higher schoring contest versus a lower scoring one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yort44 Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Martin is now our best dman and we have him for relatively cheap, to trade him now would be ridiculously stupid. You could have made that same quote last year about Rafalski, right? In hindsight, would it have been ridiculous to have traded him last year instead of having nothing in return? And wouldn't it be refreshing if LL just came out and said "we traded him because we knew we could have never signed them and wanted to get some longer term value out of it". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yort44 Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Troy, you were suggesting downgrading the defense to upgrade the offense would make Marty less fatigued, I disagree. Higher scoring games where he takes more shots on goal would fatigue Marty quicker than a low scoring one where he isn't seeing as much action. I just pulled those numbers out of the air as an example of a higher schoring contest versus a lower scoring one. Maybe I'm missing something, but since when was Paul Martin considered a shut down D-man? When you think of the best defensive D-men in the league, Paul Martin is one of the first 10...or 20 you think of? We're not talking Scott Stevens here, he's replaceable and having Andy Greene or such in his place will not cost you a goal a game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MantaRay Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Nieds was one of the best Dmen (offensively) in the league for years, to expect Martin to be that is like expecting Hale to be Stevens. Not going to happen. I don't think anyone can replace Nieds or Stevens. Mainly because they both completemented each other, Stevens focused on shutting down opponents, Nieds was allowed to roam more because he didn't have to focus as much on Defense. Remember Nieds never even broke the 40 point mark for half his seasons here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfsharkalligatorhalfman Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 but martin is a restricted free agent, we can sign him for much cheaper than his market value. We won't lose him hopefully for many years to come if at all. As to trading Rafalski, I'm in the minority but I wouldn't have minded it, most people would argue that having him for the cup run would have been worth more than anything received in a trade. I just happen to think Rafi is ridiculously overrated here, and apparently amongst other GMs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils731 Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Maybe I'm missing something, but since when was Paul Martin considered a shut down D-man? When you think of the best defensive D-men in the league, Paul Martin is one of the first 10...or 20 you think of?We're not talking Scott Stevens here, he's replaceable and having Andy Greene or such in his place will not cost you a goal a game. So right now you're thinking the Devils can trade Martin for a forward and start with Mark Fraser as the 7th defenseman, and a guy who will play if someone gets hurt, and you don't think you've made the defense signifigantly worse? Martin has great positioning, has good quickness, and good puck control. Martin isn't physical because he is good defensively and it will hurt the defense both ways to lose him. That will lead to more work for Marty, not less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC Devs Fan Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Remember Nieds never even broke the 40 point mark for half his seasons here. Very true, but I think that was more because of the system and not the player. Late in the game when we neeed it he could turn it on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devs4LIFE Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 I think that Rachunek will be the 7th Dman if we get Souray. I honestly think Rachunek is not as good as everyone makes him out to be. Also White needs to step up his game and get a lot more of those big hits on people, I get more pissed off at White for making stupid decisions then any other Devil, that's just my opinion though. Back on topic if any D gets traded I think it would be Rachunek for a forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MantaRay Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Very true, but I think that was more because of the system and not the player. Late in the game when we neeed it he could turn it on. Very true indeed. You can say the same thing about Martin...he plays in the system that focuses on position an responsiblity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steadevils Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 There were times when Martin would carry the puck through the zone and make solid plays towards the goal. They always stuck out cause Chico would go crazy and talk about how they need martin to do that on a more consistent basis (he was fairly aggressive on the national team). As his confidence continues to grow I wouldn't be surprised to see him jump into the play more often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimaira_Devil_#9 Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 Well he was the only player on our team eligable to file for arbitration this year. He didnt. That says a lot about his character. One goal he scored last year really showed his potential, he has more to come. All he needs to do is play a slightly more agressive game in ALL aspects of the game. I wouldnt trade this guy now. Matvichuk is the only player i wouldnt mind seeing go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candydog Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 Well, i honestly believe that if the Vancouver deal goes down then White is the d-man out the door. In case you missed that rumour, which has beeen on XM radio, Team 1040 radio and Єklund (2.3% accurate) (2.3% accurate)'d Hockeybuzz, Vancouver and NJ supposedly have a deal in the works that would break down as follows.. TO NJ: D M. Ohlund, F B.Morrison and player(s) to be announced TO VAN: D C.White, F P.Elias and player(s) to be announced Now, i realize everyone is gonna yell " ELIAS r u crazy , he's got a No Movement Clause" which is true BUT he can wave it if he see's fit and maybe with RAF and GOMEZ gone he just might do that! Personally i like the deal in terms of the D-man we get back and the Cap money we save next season when Morrison's contract is up, perhaps we take a run at Heatly or Marian Hossa next summer! But then again, if nothing happens with a trade(Lou and Jeff both said a couple were in the works) i would trade Matvichuk IF anyone would take him! DEVILS FOR LIFE, DEATH TO THE LEAF NATION! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevestevens Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 I dont see any of these trades working to our advantage that well. It would break up team chemistry, and i just think we should stay put with what we have unless someone verbally says "i want out" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyFan42 Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 (edited) Steve's right. Lou does not involve himself in trades in which he gets the short end of the stick unless he has no other options (i.e. the Malakhov deal last year). We're nowhere near being pinned in a corner like that. Edited July 8, 2007 by RowdyFan42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrydevil Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 That rumored Vancouver trade is abominable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candydog Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 True enough but if you factor in Parise and 3.5 mill contract, Martin and a 3.5 mill contract and then let's say 5.6 for Souray or someone like that the Devils salary would be $54 346 407 or roughly 4+ million OVER the cap..... someone's gotta go and Matvichuk and his 1.3 and Brylin and his 1.5 ain't gonna cut it! On top of that Lou said he dosen't want to up near the cap ceiling he wants about 2 mill to play with so in essence he's got to move roughly 6 million in salary or Elias's contract.... If he move's both Elias and White that's 9 million in cap hit and Morrison and Ohlund combine make just over 6 he then dumps Matvichuk because he would have signed another d-man and Brylin's 1.5 puts us at roughly at $49.8 mill.... so he'd still need to cut 1.8 to get to his target of $48 mill. Of course he may sign a d-man for 3.6 and save 2 mill over Sourays offer and he'd be bang on but suppose Martin or Parise want more or they sign a offer sheet for more, than what? I know this is alot of what if but being the "DEVILS" advocate it's a distinct possibility and especially with Lowe and the Oilers most likely target being Parise, this could get interesting! DEVILS FAN FOR LIFE, DEATH TO THE LEAF NATION! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevestevens Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 Steve's right. Lou does not involve himself in trades in which he gets the short end of the stick unless he has no other options (i.e. the Malakhov deal last year). We're nowhere near being pinned in a corner like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SatansDevils Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 (edited) Well, i honestly believe that if the Vancouver deal goes down then White is the d-man out the door. In case you missed that rumour, which has beeen on XM radio, Team 1040 radio and Єklund (2.3% accurate) (2.3% accurate)'d Hockeybuzz, Vancouver and NJ supposedly have a deal in the works that would break down as follows..TO NJ: D M. Ohlund, F B.Morrison and player(s) to be announced TO VAN: D C.White, F P.Elias and player(s) to be announced Now, i realize everyone is gonna yell " ELIAS r u crazy , he's got a No Movement Clause" which is true BUT he can wave it if he see's fit and maybe with RAF and GOMEZ gone he just might do that! Personally i like the deal in terms of the D-man we get back and the Cap money we save next season when Morrison's contract is up, perhaps we take a run at Heatly or Marian Hossa next summer! But then again, if nothing happens with a trade(Lou and Jeff both said a couple were in the works) i would trade Matvichuk IF anyone would take him! DEVILS FOR LIFE, DEATH TO THE LEAF NATION! Do you really think after all Patrik's loyalty to Lou and the Devils by staying here in New Jersey last year signing as a UFA when he could have gone anywhere will possibly give up his no trade clause? HELL NO. Why would he want to move across the globe to Canada in Vancouver? Not happening and just wish this bad rumor trade would go away and die already. Edited July 8, 2007 by SatansDevils Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candydog Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 Exactly true. Lou will never come up on the short end of any stick. Trading Elias would put us there. Dont get me wrong, he would trade Elias, but not for cheap. No way Martin will be making that much next year. Parise is possible for 3.5 but sending him to arbitration he would probably get around 2 or 2.5. I dont see alot of moves with the core of the team including Elias, Parise or any player like that. Parise didn't have player arbitration rights this season and Lou could have but didn't as the deadline was July 6th for teams to take players to Arbitration! Paul Martin's making $2 million now and had player arbitration rights BUT decided not to use them and again Lou didn't take him either, so how much do you think Martin is gonna get or thinks he's gonna get based on discussions with Lou to void his arb rights? If he ain't making @least White Money($3 mill per) i'd be shocked and seeing as he's younger and better all round than White, $3.5 i think is what he's gonna end up with per! I side with you 100% on Lou not getting the short end of the stick and Elias won't be cheap, so you can bet that Lou will get someone or something extra thrown in that or any deal( the prospect Bourdon. everyone wants that kid or perhaps a couple 1st's?), maybe Lou is going to flip Morrison to another team for something else, lots of teams need a capable centre and would pay nicely for him! All in all, Lou is a mastermind and is always working for his teams benefit and you can bet if he does move Elias and anyone else it's part of a bigger picture we can't see! Like the motto says" IN LOU WE TRUST" and if Jeff does..... i do! DEVILS FAN FOR LIFE, DEATH TO THE LEAF NATION! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevestevens Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 I still dont beleive Martin will be making 3.5. Like i said Parise might but its doubtful for a second year player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 (edited) Paul Martin is a minutes-eater - he does nothing particularly well. Add in the fact that he is a total finesse defender and his stock is a little lower than one might think. His PP skills are adequate, his shot stinks, and he doesn't take enough offensive chances. It is good that he almost never takes penalties though. I think he's at about the top of his upside right now. He's not going to be a 1st pairing defenseman - his decision making skills just lag behind, say, Rafalski's. I still wouldn't trade him unless it were in a deal for a significant upgrade either on wing at center. Since I see the Devils lines as this next year: Elias-Zubrus-Gionta Parise-Zajac-Langenbrunner Pandolfo-Madden-Clarkson x-x-x I don't see where we really upgrade unless we get a center, say, Marleau - and move Clarkson down to the 4th line, dropping Zubrus to the third. That doesn't seem to make sense to me. Martin won't get 3.5 in arbitration or otherwise unless he signs long-term. UFA he'd get around 4ish. Edited July 8, 2007 by Triumph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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