Rumor: Mats Sundin to Rangers

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Not to mention how many of those points did they win by sitting back and going to overtime, ten? They really haven't impressed me lately and even WITH the extra shootout and overtime points they've been .500 since the start of November.

With the way Gomez and Drury have played this year that might be a plus. Drury's on pace for about a 40-45 point season and Gomez is a -10 (Drury's a -8 too).

It's just short of a year-and-a-half since Gomez signed with the Rangers, but so far he's been a huge disappointment as a Blowshirt. The whole point of the Rangers signing Gomez to superstar dollars was that the Devils didn't know how to use him correctly, and that the Rangers would get far more out of Gomez offensively.

So far he's putting up numbers that are pretty much what he put up as a Devil, but to the tune of several more shots a game (close to 250 shots in each of the last three years, but nowhere near the 33 goals he scored in year one of shooting more). I can't see how the Rangers can be happy with either the Gomez or Drury signings to this point. The fact that they're even looking at Sundin tells you all you need to know, really.

[Devil Fan]

If the Rags trade Naslund and Sundin is willing to accept a 5M deal, otherwise, Sundin won't be there. As for teams that wants Naslund while having cap space and financial stability, the Leasf and Burke might do so if the Rags throw in a draft pick into the deal in order to get rid of Naslund. But the trick would be the Rags have 3 quality centres, but not much quality wingers.

[MantaRay]

If the Rags trade Naslund and Sundin is willing to accept a 5M deal, otherwise, Sundin won't be there. As for teams that wants Naslund while having cap space and financial stability, the Leasf and Burke might do so if the Rags throw in a draft pick into the deal in order to get rid of Naslund. But the trick would be the Rags have 3 quality centres, but not much quality wingers.

Why would the Rags trade a fellow swede and probably their second best player this season??????

Getting to Rockies point: the Ranger were rumored to be trading Gomez last July to Vancouver make cap space for Sundin, who opted to talk the early part of the season off.

It will be interesting to see what happens by the weekend.

[Triumph]

It's just short of a year-and-a-half since Gomez signed with the Rangers, but so far he's been a huge disappointment as a Blowshirt. The whole point of the Rangers signing Gomez to superstar dollars was that the Devils didn't know how to use him correctly, and that the Rangers would get far more out of Gomez offensively.

So far he's putting up numbers that are pretty much what he put up as a Devil, but to the tune of several more shots a game (close to 250 shots in each of the last three years, but nowhere near the 33 goals he scored in year one of shooting more). I can't see how the Rangers can be happy with either the Gomez or Drury signings to this point. The fact that they're even looking at Sundin tells you all you need to know, really.

They're learning that Drury isn't a center nor a 30 goal man (but smart people knew that already) and that Gomez needs a guy who can finish (smart people knew that already). They haven't given Gomez a true finisher - they gave him Markus Naslund.

I don't think he's a 'huge disappointment' - any more than Elias was last season, there's plenty of time for him to pull out of this. No, he isn't going to score 33 goals again without a massive dose of luck, but we all knew that anyway. Scoring on the Rangers is down in general - the Rangers really, really remind of last year's Devils in a lot of ways.

[britoon]

I hate this bullsh!t where a veteran player like Sundin, Neidermeyer or even Selanne wait until the season is almost half over to finally make up their minds on where to play.

There needs to be a time limit, I don't care if you've been in the league for 1 year or 21 years. If you don't come to a decision by X date then guess what, you don't get to play that year.

God, this pisses me off!

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

They're learning that Drury isn't a center nor a 30 goal man (but smart people knew that already) and that Gomez needs a guy who can finish (smart people knew that already). They haven't given Gomez a true finisher - they gave him Markus Naslund.

I don't think he's a 'huge disappointment' - any more than Elias was last season, there's plenty of time for him to pull out of this. No, he isn't going to score 33 goals again without a massive dose of luck, but we all knew that anyway. Scoring on the Rangers is down in general - the Rangers really, really remind of last year's Devils in a lot of ways.

I think he's a "huge disappointment" with respect to what they thought they could get out of him. I think they really thought they were getting a 90-to-100 point guy who'd be able to net 25-30 goals...because they'd know how to utilize him better than the Devils. The classic "pay a good player like a superstar and he'll become one" mistake that backfires on overzealous GMs time and time again.

He's a huge disappointment to this point in the deal (which is why I said "so far"). But I know long-term deals don't always pan out early (just like some don't pan out late), and Gomez has plenty of time to make the investment look better. But if he puts up similar seasons to what he did as a Devil, at those dollars, then that deal was not a good one. Like I said, the Rangers thought they were getting Gomez 2.0, not 1.0.

[Triumph]

I think he's a "huge disappointment" with respect to what they thought they could get out of him. I think they really thought they were getting a 90-to-100 point guy who'd be able to net 25-30 goals...because they'd know how to utilize him better than the Devils. The classic "pay a good player like a superstar and he'll become one" mistake that backfires on overzealous GMs time and time again.

They just could not have thought this. Although I guess I thought this. But that was before I knew about how shooting percentage affects things. Regardless, the Rangers were a middle of the pack offensive team in 05-06 and 06-07, and that offense was on the shoulders of a declining Jagr. Obviously they can't be happy with what they've gotten, but a falling tide lowers all boats. If Gomez went to a team like Philadelphia (instead of Briere), he could easily be a 20 goal 60 assist man. But he went to a moribund offensive team playing the 1-2-2 - and his numbers, unsurprisingly, have stayed about where they were as a Devil.

He's a huge disappointment to this point in the deal (which is why I said "so far"). But I know long-term deals don't always pan out early (just like some don't pan out late), and Gomez has plenty of time to make the investment look better. But if he puts up similar seasons to what he did as a Devil, at those dollars, then that deal was not a good one. Like I said, the Rangers thought they were getting Gomez 2.0, not 1.0.

Eh, at the beginning of the season (and the off-season) a lot of people were saying the Devils kept the wrong guy, they should've let Elias walk and kept Gomez, Gomez brought something to the table none of the Devils do, etc. What we should learn from last year's Devils is that down years happen, and sometimes they simply happen to almost the whole team. Without a player to complement Gomez, the Rangers should be expecting this. Gomez works best when he's with a pure shooter, and the Rangers don't have a player like that - Zherdev isn't that kind of player, his best asset is his skating and stickhandling. If Zherdev goes back to Russia and Gionta signs with the Rangers I think they'll be a lot happier with the return.

Edited December 16, 2008 by Triumph

[themiddle91489]

I hate this bullsh!t where a veteran player like Sundin, Neidermeyer or even Selanne wait until the season is almost half over to finally make up their minds on where to play.

There needs to be a time limit, I don't care if you've been in the league for 1 year or 21 years. If you don't come to a decision by X date then guess what, you don't get to play that year.

God, this pisses me off!

Me too. I'm surprised he's not trying to force himself on San Jose or Boston's roster at an attempt to win a half-assed Cup.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

They just could not have thought this. Although I guess I thought this. But that was before I knew about how shooting percentage affects things. Regardless, the Rangers were a middle of the pack offensive team in 05-06 and 06-07, and that offense was on the shoulders of a declining Jagr. Obviously they can't be happy with what they've gotten, but a falling tide lowers all boats. If Gomez went to a team like Philadelphia (instead of Briere), he could easily be a 20 goal 60 assist man. But he went to a moribund offensive team playing the 1-2-2 - and his numbers, unsurprisingly, have stayed about where they were as a Devil.

This is why I sometimes wonder how long Renney's going to keep his job there. I'm not saying the Rangers were right to expect instantly better production from Gomez, but I'm pretty sure they're wondering why they're not getting more bang for their buck offensively. The shootout wins are really covering up a world of hurt for Renney and Co. right now.

Eh, at the beginning of the season (and the off-season) a lot of people were saying the Devils kept the wrong guy, they should've let Elias walk and kept Gomez, Gomez brought something to the table none of the Devils do, etc. What we should learn from last year's Devils is that down years happen, and sometimes they simply happen to almost the whole team. Without a player to complement Gomez, the Rangers should be expecting this. Gomez works best when he's with a pure shooter, and the Rangers don't have a player like that - Zherdev isn't that kind of player, his best asset is his skating and stickhandling. If Zherdev goes back to Russia and Gionta signs with the Rangers I think they'll be a lot happier with the return.

Do you really think it was a lot of people? I remember seeing a couple of stray posts here and there, but nothing so overwhelming. As for what the Rangers expectations were...it's really not so much different from Holik in ways...I think they just shell out the cash when they can, plug in names, and expect instant success, usually beyond what that player's ultimate upside calls for, with little respect for chemistry, how he'll fit in, etc. I don't think they take nearly enough into account when making their decisions...oh, Redden's available? Plug 'im in!

[MantaRay]

I think he's a "huge disappointment" with respect to what they thought they could get out of him. I think they really thought they were getting a 90-to-100 point guy who'd be able to net 25-30 goals...because they'd know how to utilize him better than the Devils. The classic "pay a good player like a superstar and he'll become one" mistake that backfires on overzealous GMs time and time again.

He's a huge disappointment to this point in the deal (which is why I said "so far"). But I know long-term deals don't always pan out early (just like some don't pan out late), and Gomez has plenty of time to make the investment look better. But if he puts up similar seasons to what he did as a Devil, at those dollars, then that deal was not a good one. Like I said, the Rangers thought they were getting Gomez 2.0, not 1.0.

I would agree they signed Gomez thinking he was a 100 guy and are coming to the realization he is not. Which is why I think they will deal him if they need to sign Sundin as was rumored earlier this season.

[losdiablos103]

i hope he breaks his hip....

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

I would agree they signed Gomez thinking he was a 100 guy and are coming to the realization he is not. Which is why I think they will deal him if they need to sign Sundin as was rumored earlier this season.

That would shock me after the Rangers committed to him for seven years. After looking it up though, I found that he only has a limited NTC, where he picks three teams that he won't play for. So it's not quite as outlandish as I would have thought, but I'd still be stunned if the Rangers traded him. I don't think Gomez would have signed with them if he thought he'd be getting traded after less than two years there.

[Triumph]

This is why I sometimes wonder how long Renney's going to keep his job there. I'm not saying the Rangers were right to expect instantly better production from Gomez, but I'm pretty sure they're wondering why they're not getting more bang for their buck offensively. The shootout wins are really covering up a world of hurt for Renney and Co. right now.

The Rangers have totally made over their team in 3 years. The only players left from the first season after the lockout are Lundqvist, Roszival, and Prucha. I don't think they should be at all surprised that their team is in the bottom half offensively - it's not a good offensive team. You've got Drury, overrated because he played with the Sabres but his whole career he has been squarely a 2nd line forward (albeit a tremendous one), Gomez, whose top end is like 20 goals, Zherdev, who's a decent scorer but nothing outstanding. Dubinsky is a very good player but he has American hands. Ditto Ryan Callahan. Markus Naslund was good three years ago but he was decent on a bad offensive team in Vancouver and isn't moving to anything better in New York. And that's the Rangers offense - the bottom six is an assortment of random castaways.

Anyway, I do think Renney has a high chance of being fired even before the end of the season, and if the Rangers don't win in the first round and things continue as they are, he will be fired.

And yes, I did predict the Rangers out of the playoffs, and if it weren't for their inordinate shootout success it would look prescient.

Do you really think it was a lot of people? I remember seeing a couple of stray posts here and there, but nothing so overwhelming. As for what the Rangers expectations were...it's really not so much different from Holik in ways...I think they just shell out the cash when they can, plug in names, and expect instant success, usually beyond what that player's ultimate upside calls for, with little respect for chemistry, how he'll fit in, etc. I don't think they take nearly enough into account when making their decisions...oh, Redden's available? Plug 'im in!

Well, you kind of can't. That's the thing about the Rangers in 05-06 - they exceeded all expectations that year, they really weren't supposed to make the playoffs, but they find this young goalie and Jagr rediscovers himself and away they went. Sather knows he's got a short window here, so I think Sundin is the right move for them - in spite of the young players they have, the salary cap isn't going to continue to rise as expected, so the strategy of just buying the best free agent available until damn it they just have to play well is now shot. This is an average team and despite Staal, Girardi, and Dubinsky, they will be offset by the aging by the rest of the team.

I do agree that the Rangers don't seem to examine exactly what they need, as opposed to the Devils who clearly examine that very closely when dealing with free agents. I thought Rolston and Redden would be the two big names New Jersey would look into - and while Rolston's certainly been a dud so far, I have a lot more hope about him than I do with Redden.

[SueNJ97]

They just could not have thought this. Although I guess I thought this. But that was before I knew about how shooting percentage affects things. Regardless, the Rangers were a middle of the pack offensive team in 05-06 and 06-07, and that offense was on the shoulders of a declining Jagr. Obviously they can't be happy with what they've gotten, but a falling tide lowers all boats. If Gomez went to a team like Philadelphia (instead of Briere), he could easily be a 20 goal 60 assist man. But he went to a moribund offensive team playing the 1-2-2 - and his numbers, unsurprisingly, have stayed about where they were as a Devil.

Eh, at the beginning of the season (and the off-season) a lot of people were saying the Devils kept the wrong guy, they should've let Elias walk and kept Gomez, Gomez brought something to the table none of the Devils do, etc. What we should learn from last year's Devils is that down years happen, and sometimes they simply happen to almost the whole team. Without a player to complement Gomez, the Rangers should be expecting this. Gomez works best when he's with a pure shooter, and the Rangers don't have a player like that - Zherdev isn't that kind of player, his best asset is his skating and stickhandling. If Zherdev goes back to Russia and Gionta signs with the Rangers I think they'll be a lot happier with the return.

Tri, they were very clear in the press conference when they announced the signing. They said it. With Gomez sitting there agreeing with them. He had not been used correctly in NJ, they would know how to use him correctly and his offensive numbers, particularly the goals, would increase in NY. As I've said before, either they were lying or they were stupid. NJ had spent 3 years working with Gomez to improve his shooting - at their insistence, not at his. It wasn't like the Devils' didn't try to make him a better (and more complete) offensive player. I think they got him to about the best he was going to be if he was going to be expected to play in a system that expected him to be defensively responsible. And, yes, he did have people who could finish with him at various times in NJ (he also played with Gionta who he has known and played with at various times since they were both teenagers - that tends to help). So he was, oddly enough, in a better situation at times in NJ than he currently is in NY but he's happier in NY.

[Triumph]

Tri, they were very clear in the press conference when they announced the signing. They said it. With Gomez sitting there agreeing with them. He had not been used correctly in NJ, they would know how to use him correctly and his offensive numbers, particularly the goals, would increase in NY. As I've said before, either they were lying or they were stupid.

I think they expected a lot more out of Jaromir Jagr, and he didn't provide. If Jagr, rather than sliding down to being a 71 point player, instead improves to be a 110 point player again, a lot of that is going to be Scott Gomez - and he would've been something like a 20-25 goal man with 60-65 assists, in all likelihood. Now given that Jagr and Gomez's styles seem to clash somewhat it might've seemed outrageous to assume that, but had Jagr not reverted back to his Washington self, Gomez's New York career looks a lot different. Instead Jagr stinks and the Rangers have to play 1-2-2 all year. And there was probably some stupidity there too.

NJ had spent 3 years working with Gomez to improve his shooting - at their insistence, not at his. It wasn't like the Devils' didn't try to make him a better (and more complete) offensive player. I think they got him to about the best he was going to be if he was going to be expected to play in a system that expected him to be defensively responsible. And, yes, he did have people who could finish with him at various times in NJ (he also played with Gionta who he has known and played with at various times since they were both teenagers - that tends to help). So he was, oddly enough, in a better situation at times in NJ than he currently is in NY but he's happier in NY.

Well, in New York there's high-end coffee places like Barnes and Noble, you really can't discount that.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Tri, they were very clear in the press conference when they announced the signing. They said it. With Gomez sitting there agreeing with them. He had not been used correctly in NJ, they would know how to use him correctly and his offensive numbers, particularly the goals, would increase in NY. As I've said before, either they were lying or they were stupid. NJ had spent 3 years working with Gomez to improve his shooting - at their insistence, not at his. It wasn't like the Devils' didn't try to make him a better (and more complete) offensive player. I think they got him to about the best he was going to be if he was going to be expected to play in a system that expected him to be defensively responsible. And, yes, he did have people who could finish with him at various times in NJ (he also played with Gionta who he has known and played with at various times since they were both teenagers - that tends to help).

Exactly.

I think it was a situation where everyone just blurted it out without really thinking about whether or not it was at all realistic. GOMEZ WILL SCORE MORE GOALS AND FINISH WITH MORE POINTS...well...because...we say so dammit! I don't think they were lying as much as, in usual Ranger fashion, they just snatched up a name because he was available, without really thinking anything through, and somehow thought Gomez putting on the Ranger jersey at top cost would magically make him a better player. So I guess that could be filed under stupidity.

Like Marty quoted Lou in his book: "The Rangers will get the best player available. We'll get the best player for our team." Clearly Lou's had his follies here and there, but at least he doesn't take the Sather "Let's throw a boatload at THIS guy because he's there and because we can" approach.

Edited December 16, 2008 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[SueNJ97]

I think they expected a lot more out of Jaromir Jagr, and he didn't provide. If Jagr, rather than sliding down to being a 71 point player, instead improves to be a 110 point player again, a lot of that is going to be Scott Gomez - and he would've been something like a 20-25 goal man with 60-65 assists, in all likelihood. Now given that Jagr and Gomez's styles seem to clash somewhat it might've seemed outrageous to assume that, but had Jagr not reverted back to his Washington self, Gomez's New York career looks a lot different. Instead Jagr stinks and the Rangers have to play 1-2-2 all year. And there was probably some stupidity there too.

If you recall the Gomez interview on, what was it, Versus, it was NJ's fault he and Jagr weren't a fit. He'd never played with a superstar in NJ and so he didn't have the proper preparation to play with Jagr. That was classic.

[USAkid90]

My friend who is a rangers fan claims it's Renney's defensive system that holds them back.

He claims if u give Renney a team full of Betts's, Orr's, Sjostorm's he'll get them in the playoffs with his system.

Give him a team like Gomez, Drury, Redden, Z, etc and he won't utilize it properly.

That said I actually thought Gomez did well in NY his first season, 16 goals and 54 assists. Clearly not worth 7 million but a lot of rag fans are more happy with his play as oppose to Drury's.

['7']

Sundin will make them better, so this is a no brainer. Even at 37-38, he's still a dominant physical force on the ice with a heavy shot. The Rags need him, he will automatically become their best pure goal scorer even though his top end at this point is around 30 goals. Let's hope he ends up with Vancouver

Dubinsky and Callahan are a product of the NY hype machine. They're just excited to have ANY kind of home grown players. Those that are even average going to get hyped to the moon. Callahan is a poor mans John Madden with even worse passing skills, Dubinsky a poor mans Brian Rolston who will never crack 20 goals or 50 points.

Zherdev is going to go south on them as well, only a matter of when. He doesn't have Kovalev skills so they're going to be less likely to put up with his stretches of lax play.

Tri has been mentioning their luck with shootouts, but the Rags have also been incredibly lucky thus far with injuries. Anything long term to their top 5 offensive scorers and they're dead.

What the Rangers needed is a pure goal scorer who lurks behind the play. But how many Mogilny types are out there?

Edited December 17, 2008 by '7'

[DaneykoIsGod]

Sundin will make them better, so this is a no brainer.

If it's a pure addition with no subtraction, sure it's a huge improvement for them. But the real question is who will they have to get rid of in order to add Sundin? And will they be a better team minus all those players and plus the one?

[sameblood]

Was I smoking something or did it say tonight before the Devils game that Sundin wasn't going to the Rangers?

[Chimaira_Devil_#9]

If it's a pure addition with no subtraction, sure it's a huge improvement for them. But the real question is who will they have to get rid of in order to add Sundin? And will they be a better team minus all those players and plus the one?

Spot on there going to have to shed in the region of

[Triumph]

Sundin will make them better, so this is a no brainer. Even at 37-38, he's still a dominant physical force on the ice with a heavy shot. The Rags need him, he will automatically become their best pure goal scorer even though his top end at this point is around 30 goals. Let's hope he ends up with Vancouver

Dubinsky and Callahan are a product of the NY hype machine. They're just excited to have ANY kind of home grown players. Those that are even average going to get hyped to the moon. Callahan is a poor mans John Madden with even worse passing skills, Dubinsky a poor mans Brian Rolston who will never crack 20 goals or 50 points.

Dubinsky is like a Steve Rucchin who plays physical. He may never crack 20 goals since he has no hands or touch, but he will crack 50 points multiple times. Kinda reminds me of Dainius Zubrus a little too.

Callahan it's tougher to find a guy to compare him to - Dino Ciccarelli with no hands? Anyway, yeah he can't score and is probably a marginal 2nd liner/good 3rd liner.

What the Rangers needed is a pure goal scorer who lurks behind the play. But how many Mogilny types are out there?

Not many. New Jersey has one with Parise, I think. Marian Hossa was available and I think the Rangers could've gotten him with some creative salary cap work - not signing Roszival, dumping Prucha, going with a 21 man roster - it could've worked.

[SatansDevils]

Was I smoking something or did it say tonight before the Devils game that Sundin wasn't going to the Rangers?

No, you heard correctly. Sundin is going to decide by Thursday (tomorrow) if he is going to Vancouver or the NYR. Vancouver has a 2-yr - $10M contract waiting for him. If he decides to go to the NYR, the NYR have to clear $2.8M to fit Sundin under their salary cap. Therefore the NYR have to trade someone to get Sundin. His best choice would be to go to Vancouver for the $10M which is pro rated over the games he has already missed this season.

[MantaRay]

I think for his online Poker business NY would give him more exposure.