Message to Lou: Use the Cap Space

[devilsrule33]

totally apt comparison.

1: while larionov was 43, it appears that he never had a major injury in his career. he rarely played a full slate of games, but he's like paul martin - he's a small guy, and those were probably bumps and bruises. meanwhile both schneider and zubov are coming off major injuries, zubov coming off two major injuries - their bodies are probably just as 'old'.

2: just as it was certainly larionov's last season, it's almost certain to be schneider and zubov's last season.

3: both players are very high risks to suffer a career-ending injury.

4: larionov was terrible and would have to be replaced at the trading deadline. he was a placeholder. he had already left detroit once and was terrible in florida - there was precedent for him switching teams and becoming useless.

5: the devils had an above league-average offense in 2003-04 - part of the reason the devils offense suffered so much was because larionov was so ineffective - with nieuwendyk in that spot, the team's secondary offense was much better. whether he had 11 points or 20 points, it's almost impossible for me to believe that he was any better than waiver-wire talent at that point.

if the devils need help during the season and one of these guys is available, fine. otherwise, i don't see the upside to signing players who are on their last legs and might be awful. we did it with holik and shanahan last year. shanahan worked out okay, and holik was basically a disaster.

Alright but you are just proving how bad the Larionov signing was by Lou.We all know that. That is just an individual case. You said you knew it was going to be a bad signing from the start. You said he was already awful when he went to Florida, although 11 points in 21 games isn't awful for a 40-year-old. What does this have to do with the other players? Do Zubov and Schneider have a bad history when leaving a team of long residence?

The question marks on a lot of these guys are similar to the question marks next to Brian Rolston's name. Obviously his question mark is not to the extent of the other guys. Remember that some of these guys were playing 24-26 minutes. We don't need them to play those kind of minutes.

But forget about the old guys. Everyone here can agree Jay Pandolfo cannot play on the third line. So what is wrong with taking a shot at a guy like Jason Williams, who I thought would be a low risk - high reward signing from the beginning, to a 1-year deal? Can everyone agree that a Williams - Zubrus - Clarkson third line is pretty good. Williams is a guy that can play on any line if the situation arises.

And again we gave Holik $2.5 million. It can't get worse than that.

Edited July 29, 2009 by devilsrule33

[American_Psycho]

I'd rather use some cap space to start the damn season. I need some hockey NOW!

[Triumph]

Alright but you are just proving how bad the Larionov signing was by Lou.We all know that. That is just an individual case. You said you knew it was going to be a bad signing from the start. You said he was already awful when he went to Florida, although 11 points in 21 games isn't awful for a 40-year-old. What does this have to do with the other players? Do Zubov and Schneider have a bad history when leaving a team of long residence?

first of all, larionov was expected to be pavel bure's center and put up 60 points and he was playing terribly and deserved to be shipped out.

second, it's not just larionov, and it's not just hockey. athletes of all stripes, especially the best ones, usually hang on too long. very often the final season of a hall of fame level player is not only well below his performance level when he was at his peak, it's close to or below the level of a cheap replacement. the reason why this happens is because teams are reluctant to reduce their playing time and think that that player will regain his magic, and the player is convinced of that too and wishes to continue playing. look at this favre situation - favre was below average last year and he's only had one very good season out of the last 4, but if you listen to the rhetoric, this guy is going to turn minnesota into a super bowl team. you look at the two guys who went into the HOF this year in baseball - jim rice was awful in his final 3 seasons with horrid defense and below-average hitting, and rickey henderson had one great season and 4 mediocre to bad ones.

it's one of the larger mistakes a team can make and it's one that lou makes too often.

The question marks on a lot of these guys are similar to the question marks next to Brian Rolston's name. Obviously his question mark is not to the extent of the other guys. Remember that some of these guys were playing 24-26 minutes. We don't need them to play those kind of minutes.

brian rolston was not coming off a major injury when he signed here. if you're implying that rolston is that kind of risk now, fine, but that injury was a fluke thing - rolston is one of the most durable players in the league.

and again, we don't need to play them these kind of minutes, but if they got here, we probably would, just like shanahan inexplicably got 16 minutes a game last year. coaches and GMs can't let go. let some other team overplay these guys.

But forget about the old guys. Everyone here can agree Jay Pandolfo cannot play on the third line. So what is wrong with taking a shot at a guy like Jason Williams, who I thought would be a low risk - high reward signing from the beginning, to a 1-year deal? Can everyone agree that a Williams - Zubrus - Clarkson third line is pretty good. Williams is a guy that can play on any line if the situation arises.

no, because williams is a right handed shot and i don't know that he'd be any good at LW - his strength is mostly in his passing, not in his shot. i agree that pandolfo can't play 3rd line LW, but wing is the most available position in the league. i am tired of signing people only to play them out of position. i'd rather take a flyer on pascal dupuis, someone who lemaire has coached before, he's only 30, and pittsburgh cut way back on his minutes last year when bylsma took over.

And again we gave Holik $2.5 million. It can't get worse than that.

like chef said of prostitutes, you don't pay them to stay, you pay them to leave - that was certainly what new jersey did with holik. holik probably could've gotten someone to give him a 3/2 deal - it's hard to remember the heady days of july 2008, but the stock market was up, the salary cap had just jumped another 6 million and teams were flush with cash and almost all of them regret what they did. the fact that one year deals like this are way more common this year than in previous years shouldn't reflect ill on the holik deal, which was bad, but will certainly look worse in retrospect.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Triumph

[Toby Flenderson: HR Rep]

Lou should try doing the Holik thing again this year. How about overpaying Lang or Sundin for 1 year, we have plenty of space? It buys a year for the Swedes (Tedenby and Josefson) and it won't effect singing Martin next year and Parise in 2011-12 long term. Koivu would've been perfect for 1 year but the Ducks screwed us again.

Whoever Lou gets, via trade or signing, it has to be for 1 year. Please NO Mike Comrie. He is overrated and he is a cancer in the lockerroom.

[njdevil26]

You're only saying that because you don't want to be lonely tonight.

Haha shush. Nah I've likes Clarkson as a player since he came into the league. At first I'd just get really annoyed with him always being on his ass... but watching him more closely I've learned its just that he's a hard worker... he doesn't have the skating ability as say Zach Parise or Patrik Elias, but he tries.

[njd3b1ink]

If the players he gets are one 1 year contracts i say go for it. They will be off the cap come free agency next year giving us the opportunity to re-sign Martin, and without Shanny on the roster rite now this team does not look very good. I think just one player at a 1 year deal could fix our depth problem.

[devilsrule33]

Major points for that Chef quote.

My bad on Larionov in Florida. I got confused and for some reason thought the Wings traded him to the Panthers when it was vise versa. Clearly his struggling there was reason for the trade.

As for Rolston...I was definitely talking about him now and not when we signed him.

As for getting players past their prime. Schneider and Zubov can still be effective players. Schneider proved it with 17 points in 23 games with Montreal. Zubov has been hurt, but he certainly has not missed a beat as he has aged. He has a better PPG post lockout than he has for his career. 71 points in 78 games in 2006. 54 in 78 games in 2007 and 35 points in 46 games in 2008. Now I know he missed all of last year, but I don't know...I've been a fan of this guy most of his career. Maybe it's wishful thinking. I still think both in a limited role could do a lot for the PP. I can't say I liked your options very much. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing Oduya over Martin there.

[Devils Pride 26]

dr33, I'd like to see Halischuk get a shot at the 3rd line LW at camp (maybe that's what Lou's banking on too). If that doesn't work then we look for something else. From what I hear about his style of play, I'd love to see him on a line with Clarkson.

[Triumph]

My bad on Larionov in Florida. I got confused and for some reason thought the Wings traded him to the Panthers when it was vise versa. Clearly his struggling there was reason for the trade.

it's easy to get confused since the whole thing was very stupid.

As for getting players past their prime. Schneider and Zubov can still be effective players. Schneider proved it with 17 points in 23 games with Montreal. Zubov has been hurt, but he certainly has not missed a beat as he has aged. He has a better PPG post lockout than he has for his career. 71 points in 78 games in 2006. 54 in 78 games in 2007 and 35 points in 46 games in 2008. Now I know he missed all of last year, but I don't know...I've been a fan of this guy most of his career. Maybe it's wishful thinking. I still think both in a limited role could do a lot for the PP. I can't say I liked your options very much. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing Oduya over Martin there.

schneider didn't 'prove' it - he sustained yet another injury after that. there's no telling what he will be when he comes back. the question is, who's going to get stuck with him when he has that 20 point season and he's -12 and not helping anyone? who gets to be that lucky team who gets not only zero contribution from schneider, but a negative contribution?

zubov is probably the most underrated defenseman of all-time. before we got cory murphy, i would've been on the zubov train for sure. now i don't see it. zubov has suited up for about 1/3rd of his team's games in the last 2 seasons and he is 38. there's no telling what he will be. he could play 65 or so games and get 30 points for someone, he could retire before the end of training camp.

'in a limited role' - what i'm trying to say is that players like these very rarely actually get limited roles. we already have enough time bombs on the roster for lemaire to misuse, let's not give him another one.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Triumph

[njdevil26]

I feel like Lou completely went for gold last year and it didn't work out and now he's going to work on some young kids. I really believe there will be no more signings.

[Devil Dan 56]

I feel like Lou completely went for gold last year and it didn't work out and now he's going to work on some young kids. I really believe there will be no more signings.

I could see this. See how some of the kids do before Tedenby and Josefsen come over in the next year or so.

[MantaRay]

There is no reason for Lou to use up cap space for the sake of using up cap space.

There is NO ONE out there that is worth it, just let the kids show what they have and leave it at that.

He can always make a trade later with teams that WILL have problems with the reduced cap for next year.

We are in a good spot.

[95Crash]

There is no reason for Lou to use up cap space for the sake of using up cap space.

There is NO ONE out there that is worth it, just let the kids show what they have and leave it at that.

He can always make a trade later with teams that WILL have problems with the reduced cap for next year.

We are in a good spot.

There is no one out there that is worth what?

[USC09]

I will only say this, Lou making a move will be dependent on the 1st 10-15 games. If the team starts out like 1-8-1 in the first 10, then there is some major problems. Maybe Lou wants the team to go way down before bringing them back up again, I just don't know Lou's thinking.

[maxpower]

you need the cap space, if you're holding to trade, because not every trade is made in March. if a situation comes up relatively early in the season, the money is not worth the same.

[Triumph]

you need the cap space, if you're holding to trade, because not every trade is made in March. if a situation comes up relatively early in the season, the money is not worth the same.

meh. maybe 5 deals get completed between the opening of the season and january 1.

one player i haven't seen mentioned is eric belanger - with minnesota's acquisition of kyle brodziak and the fact that they have 14 forwards under contract, seems reasonable that they might give him up for a pick or a zharkov/eckford type prospect. or maybe something like andy greene and a 3rd round pick.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Triumph

[devilsrule33]

meh. maybe 5 deals get completed between the opening of the season and january 1.

one player i haven't seen mentioned is eric belanger - with minnesota's acquisition of kyle brodziak and the fact that they have 14 forwards under contract, seems reasonable that they might give him up for a pick or a zharkov/eckford type prospect. or maybe something like andy greene and a 3rd round pick.

What do you see from Eric Belanger other than a guy that might be available? A career 30-35 point player while seeing time centering some great players like Palffy and Gaborik. Isn't an answer to the second line hole.

[#21]

I would like to see the Devils trade away some of the waste of space D men (Mottau, Greene, White), try and get some sort of serviceable Center and bring up the youth. Lets see what these kids can do. Why go out and spend when its expected that the Cap will be lower next season?

[maxpower]

meh. maybe 5 deals get completed between the opening of the season and january 1.

one player i haven't seen mentioned is eric belanger - with minnesota's acquisition of kyle brodziak and the fact that they have 14 forwards under contract, seems reasonable that they might give him up for a pick or a zharkov/eckford type prospect. or maybe something like andy greene and a 3rd round pick.

deals don't get completed early for many reasons. one of which is that most teams don't carry enough cap space to do anything other than dollar for dollar deals, at that point in the season.

[devils26]

I think a lot of this depends on Vanderbeek's financial situation. Is he willing to spend a couple million dollars on a guy who might sit on LTIR or in the minors? Would he be willing to pay a guy as if he is a 2nd line center or 2nd D-man, but have him paly 6 minutes a night if he doesn't pan out. These are questions that I doubt we will ever get answers to, so we don't know under which kind of restrictions from Vanderbeek Lou is working with.

[Toby Flenderson: HR Rep]

meh. maybe 5 deals get completed between the opening of the season and january 1.

one player i haven't seen mentioned is eric belanger - with minnesota's acquisition of kyle brodziak and the fact that they have 14 forwards under contract, seems reasonable that they might give him up for a pick or a zharkov/eckford type prospect. or maybe something like andy greene and a 3rd round pick.

Eric Belanger kind of sucks. He's got decent speed but not much else. I'd rather spend more this season on Lang and see if he has anything left. No way I would trade a prospect to get Belanger either. Especially Zharkov. That is crazy.

[Triumph]

What do you see from Eric Belanger other than a guy that might be available? A career 30-35 point player while seeing time centering some great players like Palffy and Gaborik. Isn't an answer to the second line hole.

this seems rhetorical on your part, as i don't think belanger spent very much time centering either palffy or gaborik.

belanger is not an answer to the 'second line hole', but neither is anyone else - the league is clearly deficient in 2nd line centers and besides pure gambles the devils don't have the means to acquire anything resembling one.

belanger kills penalties, he can be used on the power play, and his contract expires next year. now perhaps minnesota sees no reason to give him up now, seeing as how brodziak is no sure thing at this point, but someone's probably getting booted from that team, and i see it more likely that it's belanger instead of pouliot, sheppard, etc.

deals don't get completed early for many reasons. one of which is that most teams don't carry enough cap space to do anything other than dollar for dollar deals, at that point in the season.

the problem is that the more dollars a team accrues early, the less it can take on late. it's not that teams spend up to the cap, although many do, it's that teams spend close to the cap and it's silly to add salary early on, especially for teams that are near locks for the playoffs.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Triumph

[insanity_gallops]

Going back to one of our recurring names, Jason Williams - I was thinking this morning that I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Detroit offer him something (he'd help offset the loss of Hudler to the KHL)... and lo and behold I find a report that the Red Wings have made an offer, a one-year deal. Seems about right.

re: Eric Belanger - who was it that was saying he had the potential to be an 80-point player a few seasons ago? Was that Lemaire?

edit: Yes, it was. Look at that, memory serves. I guess Jacques said that in the opening of the 2007 season, given the context here.

Belanger started so fast in his first season with the Wild that Lemaire suggested he could reach 80 points, but he trailed off and managed only one goal in his final 30 games.

Part of that was because he played a lot on a checking line and had fewer opportunities to score, and Lemaire said he'd like to keep Belanger on the ice for offensive situations more this season.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/scores108/108285/NHL830029.htm

Edited July 30, 2009 by insanity_gallops

[njdevil26]

The Habs aren't done. They are looking to clear cap space.

[Triumph]

The Habs aren't done. They are looking to clear cap space.

uh why? they're well under the cap this year. next year they'll just have to demote roman hamrlik.

nice memory, i_g. yeah obviously belanger isn't going to do that, but he's not a terrible addition. and i think williams would be a good fit for detroit as well, they lost samuelsson and williams can basically fill that role. if they lose hudler they definitely have the cap room.