Battle in Alberta part 2 GDT: New Jersey @ Edmonton

[Derek21]

You're right. Superstar Ilya Kovalchuk doesn't care about winning.

Granted. He didn't have a great cast in Atlanta. But they won zip. Zilch. His only postseason teamed with Hossa was an embarrassment. That's his only playoff experience. In the playoffs, it only gets harder. He sure has a lot to prove.

[Triumph]

kovalchuk could score 100 goals, but a rental is only a good trade if the team wins the championship.

this is blatantly and unbelievably false.

[HellOnICE]

this is blatantly and unbelievably false.

Agreed. But I think the conference finals is a legitimate bar to set. They don't even have to win it.

But none of it matters anyway, really.

[maxpower]

What does that say about him? We went from earning a spot one year to never really being in contention the next. One word comes to mind. It starts with an "I" and ends with "NCONSISTENT."

no, that would be two words.... "too early". as pointed out the team sucked and it was down a Langenbrunner. Bergfors plays RW, hello roster spot. he gets hurt, goodbye roster spot.

[DaneykoIsGod]

no, that would be two words.... "too early". as pointed out the team sucked and it was down a Langenbrunner. Bergfors plays RW, hello roster spot. he gets hurt, goodbye roster spot.

If he was good enough, he would have had a roster spot. I've posted this before ...

And as for Bergfors, he has talent, but potential stars generally don't labor in the Devils minor leagues for four years. For comparison's sake, Sykora spent one year in the AHL, Elias two, Parise one (the lockout year, so the NHL wasn't even an option), Niedermayer and Gomez none, and Zajac was there for two whole games.

[adavid]

When Kovalchuk scores more goals for the Devils than Bergfors has for the Thrashers, then it'll be a good trade. Until then, the fact remains that Kovy, like the rest of the offense, has his head up his ass while Bergfors seems to have found new life after being freed from Lemaire's "coaching".

How about points? Kovy has more.

[maxpower]

If he was good enough, he would have had a roster spot. I've posted this before ...

how was he getting a roster spot last year?

RW:

Langs

Gio

Clarkson

one of Zubrus-Holik-Rupp

there was zero chance of him making the roster. then they had a couple of injuries and he got to sit on the bench a few times.

the kid can play, get over it.

as for the players you listed

Sykora got called up because they had absolutely no C depth in the organization. then he failed as miserably as anyone ever will in season 2. that was a level of play that can only be touched by the Andrew Peters of the world

Elias early in his career, was no different than Bergfors is now... actually, a worse finisher. he was just more defensively responsible... then again, he was playing with Bobby and McKay/Andreychuk, so those guys were responsible themselves, just without the Pandolfo-like suck.

Gomez was a freak. early bloomer. has never been much better in his career than he was in his first season, other than the 05 fluke. if we didn't call him out of juniors, who knows. maybe he would have been a more complete player.

Parise was a failure in his first season. not like he set the world afire. Bergfors might have him already, I haven't been checking.

Zajac, again no depth at a position, so he plays. 10 years earlier, he sees some spot time and definately is in Albany for awhile.

Niedermayer, come on, amazingly gifted defenseman...

Edited March 9, 2010 by maxpower

[DaneykoIsGod]

how was he getting a roster spot last year?

RW:

Langs

Gio

Clarkson

one of Zubrus-Holik-Rupp

the kid can play, get over it.

I guess you missed the part where I said "he has talent." But the degree of that talent shouldn't be overestimated just because of a handful of games. Should I link to the Aaron Voros thread again?

Edit: Just saw that you added to your post. OK, how about these guys and how much time they spent on the farm ...

David Clarkson, 2 seasons

Jay Pandolfo, 68 games

Paul Martin, 0 games

Brian Gionta, 52 games

John Madden, 2 seasons

I'm trying real hard to find a player who spent four full seasons on the farm before becoming any kind of regular contributer for the Devils. The closest I can find is Colin White, who was there for three.

Edited March 9, 2010 by DaneykoIsGod

[maxpower]

I guess you missed the part where I said "he has talent." But the degree of that talent shouldn't be overestimated just because of a handful of games. Should I link to the Aaron Voros thread again?

so, you think he was making the roster over a guy with a 100 year contract at $3+M a year?

Zach Parise... age 21

81GP 14-18-32

Nicklas Bergfors

Age 22

63GP 19-15-34

that is not at all an indication that he's a better player than Parise, he won't be... but seriouly, get off it.

Edited March 9, 2010 by maxpower

[RowdyFan42]

How about points? Kovy has more.

Well, son of a gun, you're right. I could've sworn that Kovy's stats were much worse when I looked them both up today.

[NJDevs26]

I'm trying real hard to find a player who spent four full seasons on the farm before becoming any kind of regular contributer for the Devils. The closest I can find is Colin White, who was there for three.

And how old was Bergfors when he was drafted, 18? Usually 18-year olds don't go right to the AHL either, I don't see Tedenby and Josefson there and they're supposedly prospects too. A lot of our American draft picks go to college before they go to the AHL too, listing Gionta's number of AHL games in particular is a terrible example cause of that. Same with Madden for that matter, he was a four-year starter at Michigan.

You're seriously comparing him to Aaron Voros?! Bergfors already has 20 goals this year combined in his rookie season and he was playing eight minutes a game on the fourth line the last 20-30 games here. It's a fantastic coincidence that he picked it up again the minute he got out of jail here.

Edited March 9, 2010 by NJDevs26

[maxpower]

And how old was Bergfors when he was drafted, 18? Usually 18-year olds don't go right to the AHL either, I don't see Tedenby and Josefson there and they're supposedly prospects too. A lot of our American draft picks go to college before they go to the AHL too, listing Gionta's number of AHL games in particular is a terrible example cause of that. Same with Madden for that matter, he was a four-year starter at Michigan.

You're seriously comparing him to Aaron Voros?! Bergfors already has 20 goals this year combined in his rookie season and he was playing eight minutes a game the last 20-30 games here. It's a fantastic coincidence that he picked it up again the minute he got out of jail here.

yep, he doesn't realize Bergfors signed early. and it's just another case where someone signing early was a mistake.

Edited March 9, 2010 by maxpower

[Triumph]

yep, he doesn't realize Bergfors signed early. and it's just another case where someone signing early was a mistake.

his choices were to play in albany or play with the st. john's fog devils, an expansion team. or possibly tiny minutes on a swedish team.

whatever the case, bergfors had 1 very good season as a pro, two bad ones, a good one, then another very good one this year.

[Devil Dan 56]

kovalchuk could score 100 goals, but a rental is only a good trade if the team wins the championship. considering we have the most offensively inept group of defensmen i've probably ever seen, getting a superstar forward probably was/is not going to be enough to make us championship caliber. the way rafalski played during the olympics, that's the sort of thing that could've maybe pushed us over the top. the forward-equivalent of that would not be enough

Well, it did get rid of that Oduya contract which wasn't looking to great this year, so it does have some lasting effect.

[openheads]

Agreed. But I think the conference finals is a legitimate bar to set. They don't even have to win it.

Really????????

What did the Devs gamble on him for then?

Kovy is NOT going to resign, let's be honest......... This was a NOW type of move. Marty's window is closing & it was a desperation trade that will not pan out.

[metallidevils]

Agreed. But I think the conference finals is a legitimate bar to set. They don't even have to win it.

But none of it matters anyway, really.

(bergfors + 1st or 2nd round exit) >>>>> 3rd round exit

[adavid]

Really????????

What did the Devs gamble on him for then?

Kovy is NOT going to resign, let's be honest......... This was a NOW type of move. Marty's window is closing & it was a desperation trade that will not pan out.

And if they hadnt gotten Kovy, everyone would be screaming that we should have made a move for him given the recent tumbling and lack of scoring.

Let's see how it pans out. I still like the move for no other reason than it showed Lou was willing to roll the dice a bit.

[Triumph]

(bergfors + 1st or 2nd round exit) >>>>> 3rd round exit

wrong. you're just wrong about this.

[MantaRay]

But I think the conference finals is a legitimate bar to set. They don't even have to win it.

The dynamic of the team has changed, we are now giving up 3+ GA per game and there is a chance we won't even make the playoffs.

[HellOnICE]

The dynamic of the team has changed, we are now giving up 3+ GA per game and there is a chance we won't even make the playoffs.

No, I was referring to the judgment by which the trade could be deemed successful. I really don't think we make the ECF, I'm just saying that's a bar to judge the kovy trade if he leaves. However, I really don't care about judging it from now. Lou isn't getting fired, so it doesn't matter.

[RowdyFan42]

wrong. you're just wrong about this.

Man, did Bergfors kill your puppy or something? The hatred you have for this guy is stunning.

I typically can't stand the "Cup or bust" segment of our fan base, but the Kovalchuk trade tells me that's what's Lou is thinking this year. If the Devils fail to win the Stanley Cup and Kovalchuk signs elsewhere in the offseason, the trade will have been a failure. The Devils will have dumped a serviceable forward and a decent defenseman for a net result of NOTHING. Jack flippin' squat. Now, if the Devs win the Cup, the trade will have had its intended effect. If the Devs don't win it all but Kovy decides to stick around, we come out on top. If the Devils find themselves with both a Cup AND a Kovalchuk, double bonus. But if the Devils flame out yet again and Kovy chases the money, there's no point to making that trade.

[MantaRay]

No, I was referring to the judgment by which the trade could be deemed successful. I really don't think we make the ECF, I'm just saying that's a bar to judge the kovy trade if he leaves. However, I really don't care about judging it from now. Lou isn't getting fired, so it doesn't matter.

True.

Man, did Bergfors kill your puppy or something? The hatred you have for this guy is stunning.

I typically can't stand the "Cup or bust" segment of our fan base, but the Kovalchuk trade tells me that's what's Lou is thinking this year. If the Devils fail to win the Stanley Cup and Kovalchuk signs elsewhere in the offseason, the trade will have been a failure. The Devils will have dumped a serviceable forward and a decent defenseman for a net result of NOTHING. Jack flippin' squat. Now, if the Devs win the Cup, the trade will have had its intended effect. If the Devs don't win it all but Kovy decides to stick around, we come out on top. If the Devils find themselves with both a Cup AND a Kovalchuk, double bonus. But if the Devils flame out yet again and Kovy chases the money, there's no point to making that trade.

+1

[DevilinLA]

Bergfors killed my puppy...and I hate him for it!

[Triumph]

Man, did Bergfors kill your puppy or something? The hatred you have for this guy is stunning.

I typically can't stand the "Cup or bust" segment of our fan base, but the Kovalchuk trade tells me that's what's Lou is thinking this year. If the Devils fail to win the Stanley Cup and Kovalchuk signs elsewhere in the offseason, the trade will have been a failure. The Devils will have dumped a serviceable forward and a decent defenseman for a net result of NOTHING. Jack flippin' squat. Now, if the Devs win the Cup, the trade will have had its intended effect. If the Devs don't win it all but Kovy decides to stick around, we come out on top. If the Devils find themselves with both a Cup AND a Kovalchuk, double bonus. But if the Devils flame out yet again and Kovy chases the money, there's no point to making that trade.

this is so unreal wrong as well. i don't have hatred for bergfors - the irony that i was the voice defending bergfors before the season.

even if we foolishly discard the doctrine that money alone is the way to judge whether or not a trade works out - we can still see lots of benefits to kovalchuk coming. one, he is more likely to sign here - i think people would've thought kovalchuk has a 0% chance of signing in new jersey this summer had he stayed on the thrashers or been traded elsewhere, now we can put that higher. that can't be ignored.

two, the devils are very organizationally strong at wing, they can afford to make this deal. when you have too many assets at one position, it's best to clear them out when they're at the peak of their value, rather than when they get squeezed out. the biron/noronen/miller triumvirate in buffalo, for example - regier ended up getting almost nothing for those players.

three, even if kovalchuk does leave, if the devils win more rounds it's going to put asses in the seats next season. the team hasn't even been competitive in the 2nd round in 7 years, it's been a while.

four, bergfors is arbitration-eligible next summer and he won't be much of a bargain anymore.

why metallidevils' thinking is terrible is because no team chooses where they are going to finish. you make a deal based on probability, not certainty - if kovalchuk increases your odds of winning in a particular round by some %, you think it advantageous to make the deal. oduya was probably a net negative (i think seidenberg and leopold are equivalent w/ oduya in skill and both will sign for less money this off-season), bergfors a positive but not a huge one, cormier a positive but not a huge one. i think bergfors is definitely an NHL winger and will be a 20-25 goal scorer w/ designs towards 30 - i don't know how valuable that sort of player is. it appears to me that that is precisely the most overvalued commodity in the NHL today.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Triumph

[bdubdevs]

If the Devils find themselves with both a Cup AND a Kovalchuk, double bonus.

This is an interesting point. It's tough to imagine it right now, but if the Devils win the cup, it's hard to imagine Kovy wanting to go any place else, unless he really is just all about the money and goes to the KHL. But if he's about winning, and he wins a cup in NJ, there's not really a talent upgrade after that.