Mike Peluso's law suit against Devils

[Satans Hockey]

2 hours ago, DevsMan84 said:

A hobby.  I always tell anyone starting out that if you approach this as an investment you will eventually fail.  Of all the jerseys I have sold, I have made money on some and lost money on others.  I am actually a happy camper when I sell one for the same price I paid.  Also it is a buyers market these days.  Same thing that happened to cards in the early 90's is happening now with the newer jerseys.  The older jerseys are better at keeping value, but they tend to be more money and harder to find.  There is an entire hobby devoted to game worn hockey jerseys.

my wife and I do not plan on having kids, so eventually more likely than not one days down the line I will have a sell off.  Could be decades away or after I die, but they won't be in my possession forever.

btw I am selling a game worn Andy Greene 2014-15 red set 3 that is photomatched.  Still available for anyone who is interested.

I might consult you more on this subject some day because I don't want/care if they would be game worn jerseys but I always thought it would be really awesome to frame a jersey of each captain from the team. I just would want to get the closest thing possible letter/numbers wise and I know your knowledge of this stuff is incredible. I've been planning it in my head for years but never started it lol 

[DevsMan84]

I could help out on that, but heads up that while the newer stuff is pretty easy, things get dicey 2000 and prior.  It also depends on how accurate you want it, how much you are willing to spend and how patient you are.

[mfitz804]

On 12/22/2016 at 8:13 PM, DevsMan84 said:

Current count is about 45-ish game worn jerseys and about 5-10 authentics/replicas.

I still post occasionally in the mostly deserted marketplace section of this forum in the game worn jersey thread about current updates to my collection.  That thread for a couple of years was pretty active with a group of collectors until they were mostly driven out of here.

When it comes to jerseys, I am quite active in the icejerseys forums these days.  Also somewhat active on the FB gameworn groups.

I'd have thought more...

[Satans Hockey]

On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 2:04 PM, DevsMan84 said:

I could help out on that, but heads up that while the newer stuff is pretty easy, things get dicey 2000 and prior.  It also depends on how accurate you want it, how much you are willing to spend and how patient you are.

Thanks, like I said ive been thinking about it for years but probably won't do it for awhile still, it looks cool in my head though lol

[BostonNala370]

On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 2:04 PM, DevsMan84 said:

I could help out on that, but heads up that while the newer stuff is pretty easy, things get dicey 2000 and prior.  It also depends on how accurate you want it, how much you are willing to spend and how patient you are.

Nice offer 

[DevsMan84]

On 12/24/2016 at 3:09 PM, mfitz804 said:

I'd have thought more...

When I collected just authentics and replicas I had about 75-ish at my most.  I sold almost all of that to fund gamers.  At my max I had almost 50 gamers, but have been selling some off to get better quality ones.

[AEWHistory]

On 12/22/2016 at 3:11 PM, DevsMan84 said:

With pleasure:

Holy sh!t man!  You could feed a small, third-world country for what all those sweaters must have cost.  Damn!

Of course I am just jealous.  I have been a fan for about 35 years and I have Devils related sweaters:

1. Devils red like the one Peluso is wearing above.

2. KC Scouts old style away (when teams wore white at home)

3. Trenton Devils

I also have a Trenton Titans sweater, but that's not Devs related.  I don't think the Titans ever had any link to the Devs, but my memory ain't what it used to be.

Anyway, sweet collection man.  So do you have any good places to find deals?  I am a cheap mofo.

EDIT: ah, I see some good info in the posts after the one above.  Nice.  Sounds like an expensive hobby.  

I really want a Rockies sweater, a green'n'red Devs jersey, and I may buy one game worn Jersey at some point.  If I did I would want Resch though and I can't imagine those are easy to find or anywhere near my price range.

Edited December 31, 2016 by AEWHistory

[BostonNala370]

Many more articles picking up about Devils withholding documents just copies of the same. This should bevan interesting trial in February 2017.

Edited January 1, 2017 by BostonNala370

[DevsMan84]

On 12/31/2016 at 3:58 PM, AEWHistory said:

Holy sh!t man!  You could feed a small, third-world country for what all those sweaters must have cost.  Damn!

Of course I am just jealous.  I have been a fan for about 35 years and I have Devils related sweaters:

1. Devils red like the one Peluso is wearing above.

2. KC Scouts old style away (when teams wore white at home)

3. Trenton Devils

I also have a Trenton Titans sweater, but that's not Devs related.  I don't think the Titans ever had any link to the Devs, but my memory ain't what it used to be.

Anyway, sweet collection man.  So do you have any good places to find deals?  I am a cheap mofo.

EDIT: ah, I see some good info in the posts after the one above.  Nice.  Sounds like an expensive hobby.  

I really want a Rockies sweater, a green'n'red Devs jersey, and I may buy one game worn Jersey at some point.  If I did I would want Resch though and I can't imagine those are easy to find or anywhere near my price range.

Thanks and compared to game worn hobby of say NBA or MLB, the prices are not bad at all.

I used to have a home and away replica Scouts that I sold not too long ago.  I also used to have a game worn Trenton Devils Dan Travis jersey which I later sold.  You can get Trenton Devils gamers of scrubs for as little as $90-120.

In terms of finding deals, it depends on if you mean replicas or game worns.  However, just be warned that it depends on what your definition of "cheap" is.  If you are looking for a fully customized replica for $50, you are just not really going to find it unless you want factory customized overstock of Parise, Kovalchuk, Clarkson, etc. or go the knockoff route.  If you want to get a jersey of a player you like and do it cheaper than say the Devils Den (which now charge $195 for a customized replica these days), you can buy a blank on eBay for $30-60 and then sent it to Exclusive Pro Sports (they are the folks who customize the Devils game worn jerseys) and they will charge $65 for the customization plus shipping.  So you are in for about $95-125ish all in for a jersey you want that is not heat-pressed and looks accurate.

If you are looking for a cheap gamer, there is a nice 06-07 white Rasmussen game worn with the 25th anniversary patch on eBay with a starting bid of $250.  That's pretty good deal for a player who played 3 full seasons with the Devils and a patched jersey.  Only costs $50 more than a heat-pressed replica from the Devils Den.

For a Rockies or throwback Devils jersey, check either eBay or Sportsk.com.  Again it will cost you probably at least $100 either way but still cheaper than $200 that NHL.com or Devils Den charges.

Also forgot to post this too.  The Peluso I have is part of my Crash Line of gamers that I have:

1) Peluso 94-95 Red Set 1

2) Holik 1993-94 Preseason

3) Randy McKay 92-93 Red Set 2

 

[Crisis]

2 hours ago, DevsMan84 said:

Also forgot to post this too.  The Peluso I have is part of my Crash Line of gamers that I have:

1) Peluso 94-95 Red Set 1

2) Holik 1993-94 Preseason

3) Randy McKay 92-93 Red Set 2

Can you explain what 'Red Set 1/2' means?  Are there like X sets of Red and White jerseys that are used per season?  Or are they printed and numbered when one gets marked up and sold like the puck mark you pointed out above?

Sorry Mr. Mike Peluso for derailing your thread.

[DevsMan84]

18 minutes ago, Crisis said:

Can you explain what 'Red Set 1/2' means?  Are there like X sets of Red and White jerseys that are used per season?  Or are they printed and numbered when one gets marked up and sold like the puck mark you pointed out above?

Sorry Mr. Mike Peluso for derailing your thread.

All NHL teams wear sets of jerseys as they usually do not wear a new jersey in every game and these days the players do not use the same jersey for all home and away games as the jersey gets beaten up from game use.

A set is defined as a home and an away jersey.  Devils wear 3 sets of jerseys these days: Set 1 is typically worn from camp/opening night through about Christmas/New Years.  Set 2 is then worn from the end of set 1 through about early to mid March.  Set 3 is worn from the end of set 2 through either the end of the season or as far as they go into the playoffs until they are eliminated or in the Finals.  If they reach the finals they wear 2 more sets, but that's another story.  These set dates can change and the Devils game worn dealer, Meigray, keeps tally of these.  This year the set 1 ended with the game on 12/31/16 but back in 2011-12 season, set 1 ended in mid January.

Therefore these days a full time player like Henrique or Greene wears 6 different jerseys in the season (3 home  / 3 away) plus 1 set of the retro night jerseys so that's 7 jerseys per full time jersey.

Also previous to Meigray the Devils typically wore set 1 from start of the season through about February and then set 2 from end of set 1 through end of the season.  The Devils then wore another new set at the start of the playoffs until the end of round 3.

Again this is just a basic explanation of sets.  Some teams wear 5 or more sets a season like the Rangers and some teams wear only 1 or 2 sets like the Red Wings.  It is up to the team and their dealer (if they have one).  Also this depends on what the trainers/team do that year and that set, so there can be differences from player to player and year to year.

[DevsMan84]

To add, Devils in 94-95 due to the lockout season wore their set 1's through the entire 48 game shortened season.  I believe they used their set 2 in the playoffs that year and wore their playoff set for set 1 in 95-96.  Again there could be differences or changes.

[Matteau#32]

On 12/23/2016 at 8:44 AM, DevsMan84 said:

A hobby.  I always tell anyone starting out that if you approach this as an investment you will eventually fail.  Of all the jerseys I have sold, I have made money on some and lost money on others.  I am actually a happy camper when I sell one for the same price I paid.  Also it is a buyers market these days.  Same thing that happened to cards in the early 90's is happening now with the newer jerseys.  The older jerseys are better at keeping value, but they tend to be more money and harder to find.  There is an entire hobby devoted to game worn hockey jerseys.

my wife and I do not plan on having kids, so eventually more likely than not one days down the line I will have a sell off.  Could be decades away or after I die, but they won't be in my possession forever.

btw I am selling a game worn Andy Greene 2014-15 red set 3 that is photomatched.  Still available for anyone who is interested.

Listen to this man, for he knows what he says.

I have always told people the same thing when it comes to autographs.  If I had a dollar for every time someone came to me to ask a question along the lines of, "Which would be worth more money, a signed puck by <insert player name> or a picture?", let's just say I would have tons and tons more dollars than I do now.  I tell people, buy the stuff because you like it.  Go to the shows because you want to meet the player as he signs your item, talk to other fans, etc.  Don't buy this stuff because you think down the road you will sell it off and use the proceeds to put your kids through college.  In most cases, you are LUCKY to even get 1/2 of what you spent.  

With game used items, there were 2 problems that are prevalent now.  1)  Most people just do not trust the items.  If you can photo-match the item like DevsMan did, great.  But even then, there will be people who think you just found the picture and made the marks yourself.   2) Nowadays, the players use SO much equipment and jerseys compared to years ago.  I don't know if they are still doing it, but in 2010 Steiner reps would go into the Rangers lockerroom after the players cleared out and take all the jerseys, pants, broken sticks, etc., every few games.  Wouldn't be surprised if guys wore the jerseys for only 2 or 3 games each, then it was sold.  As a result, the stuff is not anywhere near as rare as it once was.  

Funny your bring up cards.  I worked with a guy this past summer who told me he "invested" in cards.  I don't mean he bought a few.  He spent easily hundred thousand dollars on cards between 1986-1990.  Said in total, must have had 1,000 Don Mattingly rookies between Topps, Fleer, Donruss.  A few hundred Strawberry rookies, a few hundred Gooden 84 Topps Traded and Fleer Updates.  Guy is in his early 60s now.  Asked me if I ever had anyone tell me, "If you have ten cents extra, put 5 cents into a mutual fund..".   He said, he would take the whole 10 cents into cards.  Needless to say, didn't quite work out as he planned.  Luckily he sold off before the real crash in the mid to late 90s, but said he didn't get back even 1/2 the money.

 

[Matteau#32]

On 1/3/2017 at 0:58 PM, DevsMan84 said:

Again this is just a basic explanation of sets.  Some teams wear 5 or more sets a season like the Rangers and some teams wear only 1 or 2 sets like the Red Wings.  It is up to the team and their dealer (if they have one).  Also this depends on what the trainers/team do that year and that set, so there can be differences from player to player and year to year.

And, if they have a deal with a company like Steiner or Frozen Pond.  But, I wouldn't be surprised if the Rangers use 10 sets per year.

[DevsMan84]

Thanks and I actually do have more stuff to add and responses to your points that you brought up (all of them good btw):

1) Real versus Fake jerseys:  This has and always will exist.  It really depends on the source.  Luckily the Devils and 7 other NHL teams are right now with Meigray (Devils have been since 2003) and they are the most reliable source for game worn jerseys.  They have contracts with the teams they deal with so they get it directly from them and have the whole serial # tags and population reports to prove authenticity.  Rangers have Steiner who had a rocky start, but they have gotten better over time.  I believe the Rangers now use 5 sets of home and aways plus 2 sets of Heritage jerseys plus a new set for every round of playoffs.  Therefore in a season if they reach the finals each full time player will wear up to 22 different jerseys.  That's a ton and that is at the request of Steiner.  This is actually an improvement over when Steiner initially took over the Rangers program from Meigray back in 2010 when stories flew that you would contact a rep at Steiner, tell him you want a specific jersey you wanted with what kind of wear, and the rep would make it happen.  It wouldn't be a fake jersey, but it would be worn in a limited amount of games or in certain situations thus leading to some players having tons and some players with scare amount of jerseys for a year.

Fanatics is now getting into the game as they handle St. Louis' gamers as well as special events (WC, CC, SS, etc) and selling through NHL Auctions.  Their stuff is legit but they are struggling with tracking their jersey and when they are used, so they are taking a lot of heat now from collectors about this.  Most fans who bid on this are oblivious (or just don't care) and just take Fanatics word for this when they were used.

2) Photomatching: Seems to be a lost art these days with dealers putting set tags in and people feeling safe that their jerseys are coming from one of the big companies like Steiner and Fanatics.  Admittedly it is hard when you have single game and single period worn jerseys to match to jerseys with no marks, but it is always nice to get a good match.

3) Overproduction of jerseys:  I partially answered it in response 1, but it depends on the team.  Devils wear 3 sets plus whatever specialty jerseys they wear, so it's not that bad.  Other teams like Anaheim who have Beckett as their dealer seemingly wear a new jersey every other game, so they have a ton out there.  On the other hand teams like Detroit wear 1 set in the season and 1 in the playoffs.  That's it.  They also only sell their jerseys in a sale at a small store outside of Detroit once a year and that's it.

4) Cards: Cards are a waste of time and money IMO, but I can get why people are into it.  It's an old tradition to collect them, but I would never see them as an investment like my game worn collection (even though I would argue gamers, if done right, can at least hold their value much better).  Plus with the overproduction of them since the early 90's card makers have to play games and force limited edition cards to raise value.  They put gimmicky stuff in cards like real diamonds and swatches of "game used" material when they have been caught in the past putting in fake stuff. 

5) Autographs:  Another hobby that shouldn't be used as an investment.  The only ones making money off of these are the original sellers like Steiner who obtained the autograph in the first place.  I see the same people at Devils signings getting autographs of the same player that I know they have tons of autographs already for.  It is 100% their business and how they want to spend their money, but my personal rule of thumb is that if I don't think I will ever look at it again or display it, I am not getting it autographed.  These days I only go to autograph signings to get a photomatch of one of my jerseys signed by that player.

[DevsMan84]

Getting uglier by the week:

http://www.tsn.ca/insurer-nhl-player-s-seizures-from-partying-binge-drinking-1.652902

[MadDog2020]

Getting uglier by the week:
http://www.tsn.ca/insurer-nhl-player-s-seizures-from-partying-binge-drinking-1.652902

My aunt works for that insurance company as an attorney. Not surprised by their angle here.


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[BostonNala370]

43 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

Getting uglier by the week:

http://www.tsn.ca/insurer-nhl-player-s-seizures-from-partying-binge-drinking-1.652902

Sadly, this is very true, getting uglier and before it is over it will be even worse. It appears that each side is digging in their heels. Loser will probably  be Pelosi because  the other side has lots of money to fight him.  Review the NFL case many died before justice a painful death only to find out the NFL lied cheated and finally gave in and still tried to cheat the players. 

[eldon]

Say the Devils are held accountable or somewhat accountable.  What happens then? Lou called the shots, he's gone. The management and ownership are all different. Could the Devils then sue Lou? or McMullen's estate?  While I feel awful for these players, I can't help but be a bit skeptical too. It would be hard to prove, but isn't it possible the player(s) were told the risks of continued fighting, and they still wanted to be employed in that capacity? Because they have no other recourse/skills as hockey players besides being an enforcer/fighter?  I suppose the team could've made them sign a waiver, but didn't. Just saying. 

[MadDog2020]

Say the Devils are held accountable or somewhat accountable.  What happens then? Lou called the shots, he's gone. The management and ownership are all different. Could the Devils then sue Lou? or McMullen's estate?  While I feel awful for these players, I can't help but be a bit skeptical too. It would be hard to prove, but isn't it possible the player(s) were told the risks of continued fighting, and they still wanted to be employed in that capacity? Because they have no other recourse/skills as hockey players besides being an enforcer/fighter?  I suppose the team could've made them sign a waiver, but didn't. Just saying. 

If the Devils are found liable, the insurance company pays. It's all in the hands of insurance, the Devils shouldn't have to put anything out of pocket.


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[NJDfan1711]

11 minutes ago, MadDog2020 said:

If the Devils are found liable, the insurance company pays. It's all in the hands of insurance, the Devils shouldn't have to put anything out of pocket.


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Yeah, I was going to say pretty much the same thing.  Lou was an employee of the Devils, and even though he's gone, they're still liable because they were paying him a salary when this occurred.  

[mfitz804]

42 minutes ago, eldon said:

Say the Devils are held accountable or somewhat accountable.  What happens then? Lou called the shots, he's gone. The management and ownership are all different. Could the Devils then sue Lou? or McMullen's estate?  While I feel awful for these players, I can't help but be a bit skeptical too. It would be hard to prove, but isn't it possible the player(s) were told the risks of continued fighting, and they still wanted to be employed in that capacity? Because they have no other recourse/skills as hockey players besides being an enforcer/fighter?  I suppose the team could've made them sign a waiver, but didn't. Just saying. 

 

36 minutes ago, MadDog2020 said:

If the Devils are found liable, the insurance company pays. It's all in the hands of insurance, the Devils shouldn't have to put anything out of pocket.


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21 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

Yeah, I was going to say pretty much the same thing.  Lou was an employee of the Devils, and even though he's gone, they're still liable because they were paying him a salary when this occurred.  

On Quote #1, the Devils cannot sue Lou or anyone else that was their employee at the time. They were acting in the scope of their employment. Plus, they would have to show they were damaged by Lou's conduct, that they weren't aware of it, and that it was outside the scope of his authority. 

Which brings us to Quote #2, the Devils will not be damaged because in the event they lose (and I am not saying they will), their insurance carrier covers it and they don't suffer any damage. 

On Quote #3, an employer is vicariously liable for the acts/omissions of its employee committed in the course of business. So yes, the Devils are responsible for whatever Lou did. 

Regarding liability overall, its going to be a tough road for Peluso. This situation differs from the NFL lawsuit in that injuries he sustained that happened in games were occasioned by conduct that was outside the rules, i.e. fighting, which carries a penalty and may not be viewed as a necessary part of the game. Its not like in football when the Offensive and Defensive lines collide, that is part of the game action. Fighting, while tolerated and historically it is "part of hockey", its not part of the game itself, it happens after a whistle and its illegal (to the extent you get a penalty). I can't imagine a jury will adopt the view "well, he was a horrible hockey player, so he had to fight or he wouldn't have a job". 

Further, the things that the defense has referenced, partying, alcohol, dehydration, all of these can also bring about seizures. The burden would be on Peluso to demonstrate that the head injuries, and not these other things, were the proximate cause of his seizures. I don't see how he's going to be able to do that. 

Ultimately, I believe this matter will settle and we'll never truly know what he got paid. But I imagine it will be far, far less than what players in the NFL lawsuit will see. 

[BostonNala370]

2 hours ago, mfitz804 said:

 

 

On Quote #1, the Devils cannot sue Lou or anyone else that was their employee at the time. They were acting in the scope of their employment. Plus, they would have to show they were damaged by Lou's conduct, that they weren't aware of it, and that it was outside the scope of his authority. 

Which brings us to Quote #2, the Devils will not be damaged because in the event they lose (and I am not saying they will), their insurance carrier covers it and they don't suffer any damage. 

On Quote #3, an employer is vicariously liable for the acts/omissions of its employee committed in the course of business. So yes, the Devils are responsible for whatever Lou did. 

Regarding liability overall, its going to be a tough road for Peluso. This situation differs from the NFL lawsuit in that injuries he sustained that happened in games were occasioned by conduct that was outside the rules, i.e. fighting, which carries a penalty and may not be viewed as a necessary part of the game. Its not like in football when the Offensive and Defensive lines collide, that is part of the game action. Fighting, while tolerated and historically it is "part of hockey", its not part of the game itself, it happens after a whistle and its illegal (to the extent you get a penalty). I can't imagine a jury will adopt the view "well, he was a horrible hockey player, so he had to fight or he wouldn't have a job". 

Further, the things that the defense has referenced, partying, alcohol, dehydration, all of these can also bring about seizures. The burden would be on Peluso to demonstrate that the head injuries, and not these other things, were the proximate cause of his seizures. I don't see how he's going to be able to do that. 

Ultimately, I believe this matter will settle and we'll never truly know what he got paid. But I imagine it will be far, far less than what players in the NFL lawsuit will see. 

Thanks for info

[eldon]

Yes, thanks everyone for replying to my questions. I liked Mikey. All this, all these years later, kind of taints his legendary video of him crying during the final minutes of SCF-95-Gm 4, as a feel-good memory. 

[CRASHER]

1 hour ago, eldon said:

Yes, thanks everyone for replying to my questions. I liked Mikey. All this, all these years later, kind of taints his legendary video of him crying during the final minutes of SCF-95-Gm 4, as a feel-good memory. 

Why?? It sounds like the years and the wear and tear on him happened well after that moment in June of 1995...it does show how far player safety has come in these 20 years though.....