A few Brian Burke Tidbits

[devilsrule33]

Now don't roll your eyes just yet. He is the anti-Lou as we all know. It can be good or bad at times but from an outsider it sure is a hell of a lot more interesting.

Firstly, a pretty good listen with Burke on Prime Time Sports yesterday. Burke is every ones best bet at the moment for actually getting into the mind of a GM in hockey and seeing what goes on behind the scenes. Well he didn't disappoint in an interview yesterday discussing how GMs use the media as much as the media uses them. He actually gives the story how Lou and the Devils got Bobby Holik.

http://fan590.com/ondemand/media.jsp?content=20090722_180815_7644 (Start at 3 minutes for the good stuff)

Second on the docket...Bob McCown posted a little something about Burke's strategy for building an elite-level defense...

"I have a system of rating players, "he said, "particularly defensemen. I rate them from one to six

[thelastonealive]

Now don't roll your eyes just yet. He is the anti-Lou as we all know. It can be good or bad at times but from an outsider it sure is a hell of a lot more interesting.

Firstly, a pretty good listen with Burke on Prime Time Sports yesterday. Burke is every ones best bet at the moment for actually getting into the mind of a GM in hockey and seeing what goes on behind the scenes. Well he didn't disappoint in an interview yesterday discussing how GMs use the media as much as the media uses them. He actually gives the story how Lou and the Devils got Bobby Holik.

http://fan590.com/ondemand/media.jsp?content=20090722_180815_7644 (Start at 3 minutes for the good stuff)

Second on the docket...Bob McCown posted a little something about Burke's strategy for building an elite-level defense...

"I have a system of rating players, "he said, "particularly defensemen. I rate them from one to six

[sundstrom]

martin 5

oduya 4.5

salvador 2.5

white 2.5

mottau 2.5

greene 2

devils = 19

[halfsharkalligatorhalfman]

God this guy loves the sound of his own voice

[devilsrule33]

martin 5

oduya 4.5

salvador 2.5

white 2.5

mottau 2.5

greene 2

devils = 19

Burke says he has two "twos" and I think all his defense right now is better than Mottau and a lot better than Greene, so maybe you are being a little generous with your ratings.

[maxpower]

think of it as assigning a #1-6 defenseman

Martin - 5

Oduya - 3.5

White - 2

Salvador - 2

Mottau - 1.5

Greene - 1 (I could concieveably go lower)

total - 15

now, let's go back to 2003

Stevens - 6

Nieds - 6

Rafalski - 5

White - 4

they get to 21 without the other two guys. you start to understand how we could win without having any front-line scorers (since Gomer

and Patty stunk that season).

[Triumph]

martin 5

oduya 4.5

salvador 2.5

white 2.5

mottau 2.5

greene 2

devils = 19

Burke says he has two "twos" and I think all his defense right now is better than Mottau and a lot better than Greene, so maybe you are being a little generous with your ratings.

except that burke's players are overrated and mike mottau is underrated. i'd move greene down to a 1 and oduya to a 4, so that puts the devils at 17.5.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Triumph

[devilsrule33]

think of it as assigning a #1-6 defenseman

Martin - 5

Oduya - 3.5

White - 2

Salvador - 2

Mottau - 1.5

Greene - 1 (I could concieveably go lower)

total - 15

now, let's go back to 2003

Stevens - 6

Nieds - 6

Rafalski - 5

White - 4

they get to 21 without the other two guys. you start to understand how we could win without having any front-line scorers (since Gomer

and Patty stunk that season).

I think Stevens was a 6 in 1995 and 2000, but probably a 5 in 2003. White at 4 might be a little high, but it was a great defense nonetheless.

2000: Stevens 6, Niedermayer 5, Rafalski 4, Daneyko 3, Malakhov 2.5, White 1

[Pepperkorn]

This isn't easy for this group

Martin 5 every period he plays

Oduya 5 if he's on which is about one period of a good game for him. He has a good game about once a week being generous most of the time he's a solid 3 slipping into 2 and even 1 some of that time. There's no "when it counts" or clutch play - he doesn't turn it on -- he has no control he's either good or not. LUCKILY he's good about 60%

Salvador 3 EXCEPT in the playoffs where he's terribly inconsistent - he was a solid 1 this past post-season.

White 3 consistently

Mottau can be a 5 on rare occasions. He IMO is wildly inconsistent. BUT he is consistently aware of what SHOULD be done. He's just not capable a high enough % of the time I have to figure.

Greene -- who knows? I can't tell you at this point. I'll say 2 but I wouldn't be shocked if his play elevates to a 3 this season. But I'm not comfortable banking on that.

SOooooo

I expect:

5

3

3

3

2

2

total 19

we COULD have (and Lou paints it as):

5

4.5

3

3

3

3

total 21.5

OR we in all likelihood could have (and I think this is how we all feel in our guts):

5

2

1

3

2

1

total 14

THAT is the truth of it all

[Pepperkorn]

HEYHEYHEY!! Stevens is always a 6 ok... 2002 he was a 5

But what he brought was the brains and ability - in my opinion 2003 he was a 6 precisely because he stepped back - he knew when it was time to roll with it.

Stevens SOLID 6

Neids SOLID 6 (pretty much unless he was on the rag)

Rafalski (w/Stevens) SOLID 5

Dano SOLID 3

White SOLID 3

Floating dude usually a 3 but never as consistent as the others

Observe the key is not the actual numbers - which are indeed impressive -- but the SOLID Devils d in the past has been above all CONSISTENT and especially in the playoffs

Our defence feels like it's made up entirely of the floating dude now. We have Martin - that's it. White could slip at any time. Oduya may zoom to the limelight. everyone else is just the floating dude ... So yeah we're spoiled -- so now we have to learn to live with floating dude defense corps... I can polish the turd as well as Lou and say we're at 21.5 fine...if it's what the team needs to believe so be it!

Edited July 24, 2009 by Pepperkorn

[Prucenterrules]

martin 5

oduya 4.5

salvador 2.5

white 2.5

mottau 2.5

greene 2

devils = 19

I would agree with this rating. Greene is a 2 in my opinion, we could have klee who is deffinetly a 1.

[maxpower]

I think Stevens was a 6 in 1995 and 2000, but probably a 5 in 2003. White at 4 might be a little high, but it was a great defense nonetheless.

2000: Stevens 6, Niedermayer 5, Rafalski 4, Daneyko 3, Malakhov 2.5, White 1

yeah, regular season Stevens probably isn't a 6, but the dude sustained a career ending concussion and then scored the GWG 2 nights later. anyone that is insane enough to play after that injury, when he's not really needed, is really a 106. that's like the anti

Petr Sykora. Sykie was complaining about the after-effects of Hatcher's hit months and months after the fact.

[squishyx]

Martin - 5

Oduya - 3

White - 2

Salv - 2

Mottau - 1

Greene - 1

=13

Just being realistic, we have lots of generic nothing special defense man.

[nmigliore]

Martin - 5

Oduya - 4

White - 2.5

Mottau - 2.5

Salvador - 2.5

Greene - 1

total = 16.5

[Chimaira_Devil_#9]

HEYHEYHEY!! Stevens is always a 6 ok... 2002 he was a 5

But what he brought was the brains and ability - in my opinion 2003 he was a 6 precisely because he stepped back - he knew when it was time to roll with it.

Stevens SOLID 6

Neids SOLID 6 (pretty much unless he was on the rag)

Rafalski (w/Stevens) SOLID 5

Dano SOLID 3

White SOLID 3

Floating dude usually a 3 but never as consistent as the others

Observe the key is not the actual numbers - which are indeed impressive -- but the SOLID Devils d in the past has been above all CONSISTENT and especially in the playoffs

Our defence feels like it's made up entirely of the floating dude now. We have Martin - that's it. White could slip at any time. Oduya may zoom to the limelight. everyone else is just the floating dude ... So yeah we're spoiled -- so now we have to learn to live with floating dude defense corps... I can polish the turd as well as Lou and say we're at 21.5 fine...if it's what the team needs to believe so be it!

Hey PK what rating did Sean Brown desreve

[Triumph]

Martin - 5

Oduya - 3

White - 2

Salv - 2

Mottau - 1

Greene - 1

=13

Just being realistic, we have lots of generic nothing special defense man.

i assume, then, that it was pixie magic that kept the devils with the 5th lowest shots against in the NHL.

[Chimaira_Devil_#9]

Hmmm i have been thinking about the rankings thing and its a pretty good system, mine would be:

Martin:5

Oduya:3.5

White:3

Salvador:3

Mottau:2.5

Greene:1

Total: 18

I wonder if you can apply the same principal to forward lines?

So you have 12 players on forward lines and the ratings from 1-12 and you need 78 to have a good team?

so last years Devils team:

Parise(12)-Zajac(8)- Langs(7)

Elias(9)-Zubrus(5)-Gionta(7)

Pando(3)-Madden(5)-Clarkson(6)

Shanahan(3)-Holik(2)-Rupp(1)

Total: 68

Looking at the Penguins:

Evgeni Malkin 12

Sidney Crosby 12

Bill Guerin 7

Ruslan Fedotenko 5

Chris Kunitz 6

Maxime Talbot 5

Tyler Kennedy 5

Jordan Staal 7

Matt Cooke 4

Miroslav Satan 3

Craig Adams 2

Pascal Dupuis 2

Total: 70

I suppose its subjective and depends on how you rate the player but it dosn't seem like a bad system.

[Pepperkorn]

Hey PK what rating did Sean Brown desreve

uh oh..

well not a ONE!

He played like #2 a high % of the time But he did improve markedly in all honesty. He was much like Mottau except he didn't know how he was getting there or why. If you all recall there was a time when Sean was our best defenseman for a month or two there!!

[Pepperkorn]

SO no one is having an issues with the defense's inconsistency? You all think it's as easy as 1-5 rank consistent every game?

It's just NOT! See all the negative Nellies are being given their out here--- you have potential ranking, Fluke highs, Tragic nervous lows --- no one defencemen outside of Martin is consistent -- THAT is why the D is so upsetting.

Why is no one saying that? Do you guys not even watch? Or do you just like to make things black and white? Nothing gets solved that way. you all will not be happy fans that way!!! I dont understand the way you all are thinking.

But Scott Stevens agrees with me for the most part so... so... HA!

THE WHOLE POINT IS THAT THEY SUCK BECAUSE THEY'RE LIKE A FREAKING BOX OF CHOCOLATES PERIOD TO PERIOD HELL SHIFT TO SHIFT!!!! Sure Triumph they get the job done on the whole regular season... on average it's fine but THAT"S THE WHOEL PROBLEM!!!!! It's not about the average it's about the sense of well being created the trust created...

I despair of the rote hockey fan.... but I liked Chi's idea to rank the forwards too... I think that's almost an easier job!

[squishyx]

i assume, then, that it was pixie magic that kept the devils with the 5th lowest shots against in the NHL.

I think people are cheating, they are adding in decimals inflating worth and adding a point or two here or there when they see their total sum is lower then what they expected. As for 5th lowest shots against, I would say that our defense is a example against his system or magic 21 number and that sometimes the whole is greater then the sum of the individual parts. But yea, "pixie magic"

[Lateralous]

Martin = 5 - Not elite but definitely a top pairing defenseman.

Oduya = 3.5 - He's a good 2nd paring defenseman but I don't think he's so good that you pair him up with a "3" and consider it a good 2nd pair. I gave him a 3.5 because I think he needs to be paired up with another 3.5 or better.

Salvador & White = 2.5 To me, they are both floating somewhere between a 2nd and 3rd pairing shutdown guys so I gave them both a 2.5. You can argue that one belongs solidly on the 2nd line (3) and the other on the 3rd (2) and the points work out the same.

Mottau = 1.5 - He's an underrated 6th d-man so I gave him the extra half point.

Greene = .5 - I'm not convinced he belongs in a top 6

Total = 15.5. Yes they perform much better than this point total would suggest but that has a lot to do with our team having a lot of defensively responsible forwards and the 6 playing in net. Frankly, we need another top pairing defenseman to play with Martin and it shows every year at playoff time.

Edited July 24, 2009 by PhillyDevil

[nmigliore]

Mottau = 1.5 - He's an underrated 6th d-man so I gave him the extra half point.

maybe its just me but i think people are under-valuing Mottau.

[Triumph]

I think people are cheating, they are adding in decimals inflating worth and adding a point or two here or there when they see their total sum is lower then what they expected. As for 5th lowest shots against, I would say that our defense is a example against his system or magic 21 number and that sometimes the whole is greater then the sum of the individual parts. But yea, "pixie magic"

my point is that people watch too much of the devils and not enough of other teams. i don't think the devils have worked out some sort of magical secret system that no one else can duplicate - they have some very good defensemen, as well as excellent forwards. in fact, i bet the devils' defensemen took less minor penalties than anyone else's, and that's huge - a large reason why the devils' d was 5th in shots against because it wasn't facing as many power plays as other teams.

meanwhile brian burke's got his point system and he's probably got exelby and komisarek rated a point above where they should be because of the massive number of penalties that each player takes.

[Pepperkorn]

AHHHHHH! This is officially THE stupidest thread EVER!

I will say Triumph is closest to the nail's head implying Burkes point system is subjective and therefore sucks.

But he's not articulating it as such, so I say he's stupid too -- or just wants to argue with squishy... which is real bright eh?

EDIT: ah yes and... :argh:

Edited July 24, 2009 by Pepperkorn

[Triumph]

AHHHHHH! This is officially THE stupidest thread EVER!

I will say Triumph is closest to the nail's head implying Burkes point system is subjective and therefore sucks.

But he's not articulating it as such, so I say he's stupid too -- or just wants to argue with squishy... which is real bright eh?

EDIT: ah yes and...

while i dislike brian burke a great deal (he reminds me of me, only much smarter and more successful) and would love to call him an idiot, it's the middle of the summer and any hockey discussion is good hockey discussion.