NHL Submits Bid to Buy Coyotes Out of Bankruptcy

[RowdyFan42]

how're the islanders doing again? how about the devils - 3 stanley cup championships, people must be turning out in droves to see them, right? new york supports the 3 teams, but not all of them well.

Craptastic team, craptastic arena. Both are on their way to being resolved.

Blame that on the great state of New Jersey. For all the noise you hear about Jersey pride, New Jerseyans as a whole sure do seem to have a problem with supporting the one team that isn't embarrassed to be there.

But all of them are supported enough that you don't hear rumors of them leaving, right? (Now that the Lighthouse project is finally moving forward, those NYI-to-KC rumors *have* gone away haven't they?)

maybe western new york should support their team? the sabres sell out every game, they're nuts about the sabres. there's just not much money in buffalo. they support the team just fine.

So what the hell are the Sabres whining about, then? Their excuse all along has been that another team in the area will take away a significant portion of their fan base and the Sabres will be no more in a few short years. If that's not true, the Sabres really ought to shut their mouths.

the leafs and sabres each deserve at least $100 million cash for hamilton to have a team. and yes, it does create 'issues' with the leafs, it decreases their revenue streams. this board would be mostly ranger fans if it weren't for mcmullen.

The Leafs don't deserve squat. Even with another team in their backyard, they're still going to be one of the richest teams in the league. You don't see the Rangers going to the poorhouse, do you? And nice try slipping McMullen in at the end, as if that's supposed to change anything. He may have brought the Devils to New Jersey, but he almost took them away, too.

[Triumph]

Craptastic team, craptastic arena. Both are on their way to being resolved.

even when the islanders get a new arena and a better team, they're still going to be teetering on the edge of being profitable and unprofitable.

Blame that on the great state of New Jersey. For all the noise you hear about Jersey pride, New Jerseyans as a whole sure do seem to have a problem with supporting the one team that isn't embarrassed to be there.

this doesn't add up at all to me. new jersey moved into a place where almost everyone who liked hockey had a hockey affiliation. new jerseyans lack a kind of state pride not just because of all the jokes, but because very often they work in another state - i'd bet new jersey has the highest % of people who work in another state. you move into an area where allegiances are established, it's going to take a long time for those allegiances to melt.

But all of them are supported enough that you don't hear rumors of them leaving, right? (Now that the Lighthouse project is finally moving forward, those NYI-to-KC rumors *have* gone away haven't they?)

if the devils' prudential center gambit is unsuccessful, those rumors will come back to new jersey.

So what the hell are the Sabres whining about, then? Their excuse all along has been that another team in the area will take away a significant portion of their fan base and the Sabres will be no more in a few short years. If that's not true, the Sabres really ought to shut their mouths.

huh? what i said was - the sabres have tons of support. it's just in a region that doesn't have a lot of disposable income. taking away part of that fan base will affect their ability to fill their building every night.

The Leafs don't deserve squat. Even with another team in their backyard, they're still going to be one of the richest teams in the league. You don't see the Rangers going to the poorhouse, do you? And nice try slipping McMullen in at the end, as if that's supposed to change anything. He may have brought the Devils to New Jersey, but he almost took them away, too.

this is a falsehood. television ratings for the leafs will likely go down. merchandise sales for the leafs will go down. the rangers aren't in the poorhouse, but they'd be even richer if the devils weren't around - demand for tickets would be higher, they could raise the prices on that, and so forth. will the leafs still be one of the richest teams in hockey? of course - it doesn't mean they're not entitled to profit from the fact that they have a huge fan base.

[Devils731]

this is a falsehood. television ratings for the leafs will likely go down. merchandise sales for the leafs will go down. the rangers aren't in the poorhouse, but they'd be even richer if the devils weren't around - demand for tickets would be higher, they could raise the prices on that, and so forth. will the leafs still be one of the richest teams in hockey? of course - it doesn't mean they're not entitled to profit from the fact that they have a huge fan base.

And from a league-wide revenue thinking, does adding a team in Hamilton add enough revenue to the league as a whole through attendance to justify the entire loss of revenue from PHX(or Kansas or wherever) for TV base and merchandise because merchandise and TV is probably almost all going to the Leafs now anyway, so the only additional revenue, of substance, that Hamilton brings is physical attendance. So the league would probably feel it's more profitable for the league as a whole to have the team in a new city where it adds an entire new TV base rather than cannibalize TV base from the Sabres and Leafs.

[Prucenterrules]

The coyotes should be moved but not to hamilton.

[Jerrydevil]

I don't care what the NHL, Bettman and Triumph say. The idea that Canada can't be a part of the NHL's growth is ridiculous. Ontario is a great place for another NHL team. Triumph loves to talk about market sizes and TV contracts and territory infringement but neglects to consider something very simple: demand.

F Toronto and f Buffalo.

[Triumph]

I don't care what the NHL, Bettman and Triumph say. The idea that Canada can't be a part of the NHL's growth is ridiculous. Ontario is a great place for another NHL team. Triumph loves to talk about market sizes and TV contracts and territory infringement but neglects to consider something very simple: demand.

F Toronto and f Buffalo.

nobody said there can't be another team there. they just have to pay.

[devlman]

And from a league-wide revenue thinking, does adding a team in Hamilton add enough revenue to the league as a whole through attendance to justify the entire loss of revenue from PHX(or Kansas or wherever) for TV base and merchandise because merchandise and TV is probably almost all going to the Leafs now anyway, so the only additional revenue, of substance, that Hamilton brings is physical attendance. So the league would probably feel it's more profitable for the league as a whole to have the team in a new city where it adds an entire new TV base rather than cannibalize TV base from the Sabres and Leafs.

This.

Dont hurt Buffalo and Toronto to fix a wet dream many Canadiens have. Put the team in Winnipeg if anything.

[Jerrydevil]

This.

Dont hurt Buffalo and Toronto to fix a wet dream many Canadiens have. Put the team in Winnipeg if anything.

Hey, don't hurt the Rangers and Islanders to fix a wet dream John McMullen has.

[Triumph]

Hey, don't hurt the Rangers and Islanders to fix a wet dream John McMullen has.

the devils paid $23 million dollars, 3 times what mcmullen paid for the team, for the right to locate in new jersey.

[Jerrydevil]

the devils paid $23 million dollars, 3 times what mcmullen paid for the team, for the right to locate in new jersey.

I never said Jimmy shouldn't pay.

[Devils731]

Hey, don't hurt the Rangers and Islanders to fix a wet dream John McMullen has.

I think it was a different world then. National TV deals weren't as important as they are now, I believe.

In general, I agree though, the league would have been stronger by not putting a team in Northern NJ so close by the Rangers since most Devils fans would be Ranger or Philly fans right now and the League would be getting most of the benefit of our fandom without the Devils here and that franchise could be adding an entire new fanbase to the league.

In the past you'll see teams used to move into areas with existing fandoms for franchises but I think it happens much more infrequently now because the leagues get more revenue from league activities, rather than just local franchise activities, than ever before and the leagues have smarter business people involved(although I don't have any reason to believe that, I just do ).

[Jerrydevil]

I think it was a different world then. National TV deals weren't as important as they are now, I believe.

In general, I agree though, the league would have been stronger by not putting a team in Northern NJ so close by the Rangers since most Devils fans would be Ranger or Philly fans right now and the League would be getting most of the benefit of our fandom without the Devils here and that franchise could be adding an entire new fanbase to the league.

In the past you'll see teams used to move into areas with existing fandoms for franchises but I think it happens much more infrequently now because the leagues get more revenue from league activities, rather than just local franchise activities, than ever before and the leagues have smarter business people involved(although I don't have any reason to believe that, I just do ).

Some things haven't changed, though. The game has always thrived on rivalries. Imagine a Toronto-Hamilton rivalry. It would be awesome ... just like NYR-NJD is awesome.

[Devils731]

Some things haven't changed, though. The game has always thrived on rivalries. Imagine a Toronto-Hamilton rivalry. It would be awesome ... just like NYR-NJD is awesome.

Awesome for fans, I agree, that would be awesome. I don't know how much it adds to the league bottom line, though, once you take out the money that Hamilton already spends on hockey and all the revenue a team could have made in another market(including the league wide revenue addition from TV). It would take a long time, more than I have without being paid, to figure out whether Hamilton is more positive for the league as a whole than Seattle, Kansas, or something. When you put teams in existing markets it's a lot harder to figure out value added to the league than when comparing areas that don't really follow hockey now.

[Jerrydevil]

Awesome for fans, I agree, that would be awesome. I don't know how much it adds to the league bottom line, though, once you take out the money that Hamilton already spends on hockey and all the revenue a team could have made in another market(including the league wide revenue addition from TV). It would take a long time, more than I have without being paid, to figure out whether Hamilton is more positive for the league as a whole than Seattle, Kansas, or something. When you put teams in existing markets it's a lot harder to figure out value added to the league than when comparing areas that don't really follow hockey now.

It's quite the conundrum, for sure. I can appreciate the argument. Let's see how long the league can resist Balsillie's pile of money.

[point]

Do the owners plan to pay for the PHO franchise with the fees from selling a new franchise in Hamilton? This way all the owners get a slice of the pie, not just Buf and Tor getting infringement fees.

[maxpower]

Buffalo would be seriously wounded by a team in Hamilton. Not fatally, but that is a team that is already on a budget as is. They draw, but only with low prices. That is not exactly an affluent region and their "market" is pretty far flung.

I do find it funny when Devils fans go off on other teams' fans telling them to support the team. The Devils, who can drag out 6-7,000 to a free draft party but have a hard time putting a legit 10K in the building on a cold winter weeknight in February. The commitment level is what it is.

Some things haven't changed, though. The game has always thrived on rivalries. Imagine a Toronto-Hamilton rivalry. It would be awesome ... just like NYR-NJD is awesome.

they're going to play twice a year. if that.

[NJTommo44]

It seems almost inevitable that there's going to be a team in Kansas City at some point, but you never hear about how it might affect the St. Louis Blues. If/when a team moves to Kansas City, would they have to pay an infringement fee to the Blues? There's about 250 miles between St. Louis and Kansas City, but I'd imagine that any hockey fans in the KC area are Blues fans.

[Jerrydevil]

they're going to play twice a year. if that.

Well, you obviously rejigger the divisions to get Hamilton with Toronto. That would create quite a mess, though, wouldn't it? Some Eastern team would be headed "west." The problem might take care of itself when either Atlanta/Isles/Panthers move to Houston/Portland/KC.

Gary loves big markets ... why isn't the NHL in Houston?

[RowdyFan42]

It seems almost inevitable that there's going to be a team in Kansas City at some point, but you never hear about how it might affect the St. Louis Blues. If/when a team moves to Kansas City, would they have to pay an infringement fee to the Blues? There's about 250 miles between St. Louis and Kansas City, but I'd imagine that any hockey fans in the KC area are Blues fans.

Exactly, it's too far away to fall afoul of territory rules.

Gary loves big markets ... why isn't the NHL in Houston?

The owner of the Houston Rockets controls the arena and he doesn't want the competition. He barely tolerates the AHL's Houston Aeros.

[Triumph]

because no one from kansas city owns blues season tickets, so it's totally irrelevant. 250 miles is a lot - it's shorter from detroit to hamilton, on. you rarely hear detroit's name thrown in the mix as a team put upon.

given how much people from kansas city hate st. louis sports teams i'd doubt very much that there is some huge groundswell for the st. louis blues in KC right now.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Triumph

['7']

I wonder if this can be ironed out if Bettman just went to Balsillie and said we'll get off your fvcking back if you agree to move them to Winnipeg and not Hamilton

Edited August 29, 2009 by '7'

[Triumph]

I wonder if this can be ironed out if Bettman just went to Balsillie and said we'll get off your fvcking back if you agree to move them to Winnipeg and not Hamilton

but the nhl doesn't want a team in winnipeg, because winnipeg is a crappy market, and balsillie doesn't want a team in winnipeg because that's not where Research in Motion is located.

['7']

but the nhl doesn't want a team in winnipeg, because winnipeg is a crappy market, and balsillie doesn't want a team in winnipeg because that's not where Research in Motion is located.

Weren't there leaked emails from Bettman stating he would prefer Winnipeg over Hamilton?

found it http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090516/090516_bettman_coyotes?hub=CP24Sports

Edited August 29, 2009 by '7'

[maxpower]

Well, you obviously rejigger the divisions to get Hamilton with Toronto. That would create quite a mess, though, wouldn't it? Some Eastern team would be headed "west." The problem might take care of itself when either Atlanta/Isles/Panthers move to Houston/Portland/KC.

Gary loves big markets ... why isn't the NHL in Houston?

it's not going to happen and there's other teams in line to make the East move first. you would have to change 6 teams divisions to make this work. for JB, you think they'll do that favor? they'll be lucky if they're still not in the Pacific Division.

[AEWHistory]

It's their team, not Moyes, not JB's, they should be able to do whatever they damn well please with it. They should have done this earlier, don't even go through the pretense of having JB's scumbag lawyer (and the real frontman of Hamilton Hockey) shred all of the potential buyers, except *his*... now to give the team to JB, the judge has to make the decision that leagues apparently don't control their own franchises.

Isn't that bass-ackwards..... After all, the NHL belongs to its component 'citizens' or teams, the teams to not belong to the NHL. Consider, do YOU belong to the USA or does the USA, or rather its government, belong to you? I shudder to think if you actually believe the a country, a corporation, or any organization, owns its component constituents.

Now, in anticipation of a potential followup: Yes, the team is an asset, but that asset has an owner, and ownership of that asset makes the owner a corporate citizen within the NHL family. Now the NHL can place limitations onto whom it is that it allows into its tiny world of corporate citizenship, but those limitations still must conform to the laws of the USA and Canada. Also, in the meantime, the owner of the Coyotes still holds his position within the world of the NHL.

So I honestly don't see how anyone can make the argument that the Coyotes effectively belong to the NHL unless they legitimately purchase the franchise, making the same monetary investment/risks that they ask/demand of their other corporate citizens. (In fact, the NHL's investment will be significantly greater than that of another buyer because the NHL will not only be taking over the financial burden of owning the franchise, but the other owners will have the fund the NHL's ownership, effectively forcing them all into partnership for a second franchise--and one that has consistently failed to make any money at its current location.)