The real problem

[msweet]

I've got so much to say I've got nothing to say.

[Colin226]

I've got so much to say I've got nothing to say.

(Notice it's also Yogi Berra, the guy who said confusing stuff)

[MadDog2020]

I've got so much to say I've got nothing to say.

Yeah, this.

[cubanjd305]

Last season they sucked bigtime after heading into the playoffs especially after 552. This season they are sucking with 22 games left and just made a huge trade. Let's not forget 2 weeks off coming up to right the ship. Plenty of time left for this team to fix its mental breakdowns and to get healthy.

How's that working out

[Daniel]

Compare '95, 2000, '01, '03 and now. What's the difference? An awful blue line that is not getting better, and may actually get worse when Martin -- who is btw an overrated player to begin with -- is gone next year.

As I've been saying, and what people here are finally coming around to, this is a one round and done kind of time, and will be that way for the foreseeable future.

[HellOnICE]

Martin....overrated??? Nope.

[Daniel]

Martin....overrated??? Nope.

He is overrated. The only reason people think more highly of him, is that he looks like Bobby Orr compared to the rest of the crap the Devils have on the blue line.

He's a good defenseman who will make the Devils a better team if/when he ever gets back, but he's not the game changer people seem to characterize him as. If you're being honest, he's not the kind of player you notice, he's just solid on both ends of the ice, and tends to screw up a lot less than our other wretched blue liners. And not even in the same league as the starting six Canadian olympic team defensemen, or a few people that got left off that list like Phaneuf and Bowmeester.

[Devils Pride 26]

I think martin is overrated in the aspect of people talking about when he comes but our problems will be solved.

[Triumph]

martin would've been probably the best defenseman on team USA had he gone to the tournament.

[Daniel]

martin would've been probably the best defenseman on team USA had he gone to the tournament.

Uhh, it's really hard to top how well Rafalski played. I also think Suter would have bested Martin as well. And even if you're right, it's kind of besides the point, considering that none of the US defensemen are anything special. And, none of them right now, especially Martin, deserves to sniff the jock straps of guys like Stevens and Nieds when the were in their prime, both critical parts of the three Cup winning teams, and what is sorely lacking on the current iteration of the Devils, and which is why, despite the Iron Man type powers of Parise, this Devils team lacks what it takes to make a serious Cup run.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Daniel

[hit the post]

I'd still rather Rafalski were here....Martin can't shine his fvcking skate blades.

Remember when this team was built around D-men.....now were left with a bunch of ball

less no hitting figure skaters.We didn't need many goals with the d we had back then

now,we need 4-5 goals a game just to be in it...not going to happen with this bunch....never!!!

[mouse]

Good as Rafa is at scoring, he's a complementary d-man who needs to play with a great stopper. He was perfect playing with Stevens, but when Stevens and Nieds were gone, Martin was better. He's not flashy, and won't produce the points, but for every huge offensive/breakout play Rafa made, he made another mistake on D. On a great D, Rafa's a superstar, on a mediocre d, which the Devils have, he can be a liability. Martin's not gonna fix everything, especially because he won't be in game shape, but he's better than Rafa for this core.

[Triumph]

Uhh, it's really hard to top how well Rafalski played. I also think Suter would have bested Martin as well. And even if you're right, it's kind of besides the point, considering that none of the US defensemen are anything special. And, none of them right now, especially Martin, deserves to sniff the jock straps of guys like Stevens and Nieds when the were in their prime, both critical parts of the three Cup winning teams, and what is sorely lacking on the current iteration of the Devils, and which is why, despite the Iron Man type powers of Parise, this Devils team lacks what it takes to make a serious Cup run.

yeah i remember all those norris winners on pittsburgh and carolina.

anaheim was lucky enough that chris pronger married a stuck up you know what so that anaheim could have two top defenders together, but it's just not really possible in this league to do that. martin is an excellent defenseman, and before this season i would've put him in the top 30 league wide, though admittedly near the bottom. he's smart with the puck and almost never makes a bad play. the devils need this.

the rest is just nonsense, if brodeur continues to play as bad as he did last night the devils have no shot.

[Daniel]

yeah i remember all those norris winners on pittsburgh and carolina.

anaheim was lucky enough that chris pronger married a stuck up you know what so that anaheim could have two top defenders together, but it's just not really possible in this league to do that. martin is an excellent defenseman, and before this season i would've put him in the top 30 league wide, though admittedly near the bottom. he's smart with the puck and almost never makes a bad play. the devils need this.

the rest is just nonsense, if brodeur continues to play as bad as he did last night the devils have no shot.

I never said that stud defensemen are necessary for any team to win a Cup. Certainly not when you have Crosby and Malkin. However, it has been necessary for the Devils as an organization, and is what Lemaire needed to make a Cup winner and conference finalist.

I see the Carolina Cup winning team as a fluke. So yeah, I suppose all the stars can align for the Devils come playoff time, but it's certainly nothing I would count on. (An honest Devils playoff ad, "hey you never know").

And top 30 defensemen league wide? Whoopty friggn' doo. There are only 180 starting defensmen in the league at any given time. So our best defensman is in the top 84 percentile. That kind of ranking in most other professions doesn't make you a huge standout. Or as another comparison, if you were in the top 84 percentile as a Division 1A college football team, you're at best a seventh round draft pick.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Daniel

[Triumph]

so crosby and malkin are that much better than kovalchuk and parise? i disagree a lot, plus the devils supporting cast around kovalchuk and parise is much better - travis zajac and patrik elias are way better than any of pittsburgh's other forwards.

'it has been necessary for the Devils as an organization' - that doesn't make any sense, and is like the definition of correlation does not imply causation. just because the devils have had hall of fame level defensemen when they were winning playoff series doesn't mean they cannot win them without one.

uh if you want to get cute like that, paul martin is in the top 2% of professional hockey players, but that doesn't matter - martin is probably worth 3 wins a year, maybe more, over mottau. martin is almost certainly a better defender at even strength than anyone washington or pittsburgh trots out, though mike green confounds things.

[CRASHER]

And top 30 defensemen league wide? Whoopty friggn' doo. There are only 180 starting defensmen in the league at any given time. So our best defensman is in the top 84% percentile. That kind of ranking in most other professions doesn't make you a huge standout. Or as another comparison, if you were in the top 84 percentile as a Division 1A college football team, you're at best a seventh round draft pick.

On a team with 2 Top 10 forwards (Kovy and Parise)... a top 7 goalie (though he's been sulking like a champ this week in goal).....and a salary cap, you're going to have holes on a team that's the balancing concept of a salary cap... please put the video games down and look in the real hockey world like the rest of us

there's no doubt this team is missing something and I still think it's in our D to offense transition... that answer is when Paul Martin rises from the dead three days after Good Friday

[Sickman]

And top 30 defensemen league wide? Whoopty friggn' doo. There are only 180 starting defensmen in the league at any given time. So our best defensman is in the top 84 percentile. That kind of ranking in most other professions doesn't make you a huge standout. Or as another comparison, if you were in the top 84 percentile as a Division 1A college football team, you're at best a seventh round draft pick.

Being in the top 30 is a big deal. Assume each team has one of these top 30 (some have more like Chicago). But just for argument purposes this means you are playing on the top pair on every team in the league. That is not a good thing?

Edited March 6, 2010 by Sickman

[Daniel]

so crosby and malkin are that much better than kovalchuk and parise? i disagree a lot, plus the devils supporting cast around kovalchuk and parise is much better - travis zajac and patrik elias are way better than any of pittsburgh's other forwards.

'it has been necessary for the Devils as an organization' - that doesn't make any sense, and is like the definition of correlation does not imply causation. just because the devils have had hall of fame level defensemen when they were winning playoff series doesn't mean they cannot win them without one.

uh if you want to get cute like that, paul martin is in the top 2% of professional hockey players, but that doesn't matter - martin is probably worth 3 wins a year, maybe more, over mottau. martin is almost certainly a better defender at even strength than anyone washington or pittsburgh trots out, though mike green confounds things.

Crosby is arguably the best player (not including goalies, who are in a different category) in the league, at worst second best right behind Ovechkin. Malkin lead the league in points last year. So yeah, as a one-two combo, they're noticeably better than Parise and Kovy.

So far as need for a solid blue-line, it's a lot more than simple correlation (also to be more precise, correlation does not NECESSARILY imply causation, which is a meaningful difference). It's the same organization, same GM, and same coach as in the past.

And Martin worth 3 wins a year? Great, that still doesn't translate into making this Devils team good enough to make it to the next level, e.g. second round of playoffs, save some fluky events.

Being in the top 30 is a big deal. Assume each team has one of these top 30 (some have more like Chicago). But just for argument purposes this means you are playing on the top pair on every team in the league. That is not a good thing?

No, some teams could have 2 or 3 defensemen in that group. The Red Wings of the past few years certainly did. So did the Ducks with Pronger and an Nieds.

[DevilinLA]

Crosby is arguably the best player (not including goalies, who are in a different category) in the league, at worst second best right behind Ovechkin. Malkin lead the league in points last year. So yeah, as a one-two combo, they're noticeably better than Parise and Kovy.

So far as need for a solid blue-line, it's a lot more than simple correlation (also to be more precise, correlation does not NECESSARILY imply causation, which is a meaningful difference). It's the same organization, same GM, and same coach as in the past.

And Martin worth 3 wins a year? Great, that still doesn't translate into making this Devils team good enough to make it to the next level, e.g. second round of playoffs, save some fluky events.

No, some teams could have 2 or 3 defensemen in that group. The Red Wings of the past few years certainly did. So did the Ducks with Pronger and an Nieds.

I'd point out that CAL tried this "double stud" D-man concept as a model. In the modern Cap era it was at the expense of an offense, much less the "elite offense" concept you are using in comparison. Didn't work out so well.

ANA 06-07 was the perfect storm. Look at what happened the following year, that Pronger/Neids didn't work so well - they were offensively challanged and eventually recognized that they wouldn't be able to keep that talent for long, - and maintain any offense.

DET is another. Both of their top pair are aging and have struggled this year - even barring injuries.

The precise formula is just to hard to negotiate in the CBA world we live in. The only reason teams like PIT, WASH, or CHI find themselves somewhat close to a good balance is due to complete failure years where they drafted a #1-5 top pick. We've never had that luxury.

Folks need to realize that the 'ol "Stevens - Neids - Dano" combo wasn't mistake-free and even given that, will never happen again in the present CBA without a few bad years from NJ.

[Triumph]

Crosby is arguably the best player (not including goalies, who are in a different category) in the league, at worst second best right behind Ovechkin. Malkin lead the league in points last year. So yeah, as a one-two combo, they're noticeably better than Parise and Kovy.

but not by much. i put kovalchuk and parise both in the top 20 - parise probably in the top 10 because of his role in puck possession. and again, the devils have better complements.

So far as need for a solid blue-line, it's a lot more than simple correlation (also to be more precise, correlation does not NECESSARILY imply causation, which is a meaningful difference). It's the same organization, same GM, and same coach as in the past.

except that lemaire never didn't have that blueline, so the comparison falls apart. if he had no success without it and had success with it, it'd might make more sense. yes obviously good defensemen and wins are correlated, but lemaire can win without them - he's already showed that this year, since the team is well above .500.

And Martin worth 3 wins a year? Great, that still doesn't translate into making this Devils team good enough to make it to the next level, e.g. second round of playoffs, save some fluky events.

i just think this is absolutely insane. if the devils can win the division, they will probably play one of montreal, boston, the rangers, tampa, or atlanta. all of these teams have a negative goal differential, none of them are good. the devils are pretty big favorites to beat any of them. i don't know how you can look at this roster when healthy and put 7 teams in the league above them.

No, some teams could have 2 or 3 defensemen in that group. The Red Wings of the past few years certainly did. So did the Ducks with Pronger and an Nieds.

but most teams don't, and that's the key.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Triumph

[MadDog2020]

Continue...

[cubanjd305]

I hope that gum does some damage at some point this season

[run_to_the_ditch]

I've questioned Lemaire for awhile now. He's lost right now and its evident. He's in a tailspin that he's having trouble pulling out of and it seems like he's looking at everyone else to fix his mistakes. At this point the Devils look like a team that will be lucky to win one game in the playoffs and get bounced in the first round. Then Kovalchuk will go elsewhere and Atlanta will be the true winner of this deal.

This is no longer a slump. This is an issue...a big one. They havent played well since the start of January.

[njdevil26]

I try not to blame the coaching staff.

The team just has little to no fire. No one hits... that's what bothers me the most..

Elias and Zubrus... Zubes is doing well offensively but he needs an edge. When he's pissed he is great and hits very hard. Elias too... when he has a reason to turn it up, he's great! Remember his hit on Ruutu against the Canes in the playoffs? White and Salvador need to cause havoc back there and hit!

[mouse]

I try not to blame the coaching staff.

The team just has little to no fire. No one hits... that's what bothers me the most..

Elias and Zubrus... Zubes is doing well offensively but he needs an edge. When he's pissed he is great and hits very hard. Elias too... when he has a reason to turn it up, he's great! Remember his hit on Ruutu against the Canes in the playoffs? White and Salvador need to cause havoc back there and hit!

Since the hepatitis, Elias has had to pick his spots, which bothers me a lot less than some of the other problems with the team. He'll bring it in the playoffs. Some of the other guys scare me.