GDT: Flyers @ Devils 7:30, NBCSN

[Sneax]

This obsession with Marty's save percentage and his performance in general, especially this year, is a red herring. 

 

Say it with me again, this team cannot score goals.  They are fourth from the bottom, only ahead of Calgary, Buffalo and Florida.  And even still, the Devils record is pretty respectable, their goals against is low, and they would be comfortably in a playoff spot if they managed to have won a few shootouts.  This does not strike me as having some sort of crisis in net, except if you're talking about implications for the future with Schneider.

 

You need Vezina level goaltending to make up for how awful the Devils are on offense.  We were expecting that from Schneider, and it hasn't come yet.  And it isn't for lack of DeBoer giving every chance to give Schneider the main role. 

 

Um, ok? We can't score goals, but there are 2 ends to the thread, you need to score more goals then the other team and you also need to let in less goals than the other team.

 

Scoring would obviously cover up some defensive holes we have, but guess what, we don't have the pieces and cant get the pieces to fix that.

 

What do we have? A top goal tender in his prime riding the pine. Makes alot of sense.

 

We are a team that is going to have to win close 2-1 games. It's just who we are right now, what we are doing is playing the wrong players to acomplish that.

 

I'm sick of the we need to score more sh!t, we don't have the talent for that. We do however have the talent to win games by not letting the other team score. Corey needs to play, and he needs to play the majority of the starts to get into a groove, not 1 game every 6-7 days.

[HellOnICE]

The problem is we just don't have the depth, Marty said it last night.

 

Aside from the few weeks at the beginning of the year, we've largely played good hockey. Every team has ups and downs, and it has very little to do with coaching. We should have a couple more points from goaltending, but I don't put it at greater than 3. I think injuries have made us far worse off, especially the recent string.

 

Elias and Brunner being out (Elias has missed a bunch this year) are huge hits. We don't have a lot of depth and its forcing us to screw up slotting again. We don't have a major star forward like Sid who can carry other injuries easily. We just don't. We need a full team to compete.

 

Z-Z-Jagr

-Elias-Brunner

Ryder-Henrique-Clowe

 

We aren't a great team anyway, but this top 8 or 9 if healthy would be good enough to make it in the playoffs and we'd score a little bit more.

 

We can't make it through this stretch of the season like this without a move. Like I have said though, there's no move to be made at this point. There are no trades going on, and as much as we don't have a first round pick we can't mortgage the little depth and blue chip prospects we do have - for a short term solution for this year's playoff.

 

We need to get healthy. That's pretty much it.

[HellOnICE]

Um, ok? We can't score goals, but there are 2 ends to the thread, you need to score more goals then the other team and you also need to let in less goals than the other team.

 

Scoring would obviously cover up some defensive holes we have, but guess what, we don't have the pieces and cant get the pieces to fix that.

 

What do we have? A top goal tender in his prime riding the pine. Makes alot of sense.

 

We are a team that is going to have to win close 2-1 games. It's just who we are right now, what we are doing is playing the wrong players to acomplish that.

 

I'm sick of the we need to score more sh!t, we don't have the talent for that. We do however have the talent to win games by not letting the other team score. Corey needs to play, and he needs to play the majority of the starts to get into a groove, not 1 game every 6-7 days.

 

 

yeah we can win close 2-1 games but I don't buy that bad goaltending is the main reason we are where we are. We can't score goals. That's the real issue here. marty hasn't played well, but to be fair, his margin for error (and Cory's for that matter) is so small. The team doesn't have the guns to bail them out, although to be fair, there have been many games this year where they have bailed the goaltending out just to lose anyway.

[Sneax]

This is pro hockey, I expect some bad goals to go in, but when was the last time we played a goalie who wasn't on his game and letting in 2 soft goals a night. I think bryzgalov in the 2011-2012 playoffs. But in all seriousness, I expect a very high level of play from a pro athlete, and the reason marty is struggling is because at 40+ you aren't capable of playing at that level night in and night out.

 

 

If we had a good goalie in net last night, we probably win. The flyers were completly outplayed for the majority of the game and baring a few short spurts of offense they were mostly hemmed in their own zone (also barring the PP time they got, which I feel we killed pretty well and there is no way marty or any goalie stops the Giroux goal). In that situation a good goalie be able to help the team win those games, the 2nd goal marty let up was just AWFUL, I didn't seem emery with his 5 hole wide open because hes to slow going across the crease, I don't expect ours to.

 

And for the record watch marty, those openings and fvck ups are there even when the other team doesn't score. The other team just isn't burying their chances.

 

 

 

Let's put this debate aside for a second and think about the following. We are lossing with both of them in net, the only one this team has a vested interest in is Cory at this point, he's our future and we gave up a 1st for him. Why the fvck isn't he seeing the majority of the starts? Broduer should be playing exclusivley in back to backs at this point.

 

Corey just came from this exact situation, I doubt he's going to stick around if we fvck with him like this.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Sneax

[ThreeCups]

Brodeur is terrible.  There's really no other way to put it - yes he's vacillated between being good and catastrophically bad, but he's not good at all, we can say that for certain.  He cannot stay here another year.  He's already helping cost NJ the playoffs this year, and did so last year, and will continue to do so as long as he is in a Devils uniform.

 

C'mon Tri

 

Regardless of how the games got divided up amongst Marty and Cory, this team was going so struggle to win games.  PERIOD.  We are far from an offensive juggernaut.

This obsession with Marty's save percentage and his performance in general, especially this year, is a red herring. 

 

Say it with me again, this team cannot score goals.  They are fourth from the bottom, only ahead of Calgary, Buffalo and Florida.  And even still, the Devils record is pretty respectable, their goals against is low, and they would be comfortably in a playoff spot if they managed to have won a few shootouts.  This does not strike me as having some sort of crisis in net, except if you're talking about implications for the future with Schneider.

 

You need Vezina level goaltending to make up for how awful the Devils are on offense.  We were expecting that from Schneider, and it hasn't come yet.  And it isn't for lack of DeBoer giving every chance to give Schneider the main role. 

 

I think you hit the nail on the head here

 

The difference between Marty's play and Cory's is not really costing us wins

 

The team flat out cannot score to save their lives.

 

It was destined to be a rough one no matter who was in net.

[ThreeCups]

The poster I was responding to was comparing Brodeur and Schneider which is what I followed up with. We weren't talking about the offense. We all know the Devils are one of the worst offensive teams in the league and have a higher on-ice SH% for Brodeur and the opposite for Schneider.

A goalie's job is to stop pucks and Brodeur simply doesn't do that good enough. That's why save percentage matters. The Devils have been fortunate to win the amount of games with him in the net as they have.

 

The other problem I have with that stat lovers out there is that save percentage does not take into consideration the QUALITY of shots.

 

If a goalie makes 39 saves and lets in one goal, that is an amazing save %.  The saves could have all been floaters from center ice.

 

My point is, Marty seems to make the BIG saves more often.  Again, I am not saying Marty is playing incredible hockey, he is not.

 

However that late save last night stole the Devils a point.  If Cory was in net that one was hitting the twine, and we do not get a point for last night's "effort", or lack thereof.

[Mike Brown]

When it comes to a defensive forward they are..

 

That makes Travis Zajac a superstar.

[Triumph]

I think if you take out empty net goals and shootout goals the Devils have scored as many goals as they've given up.  If they had 3 shootout wins instead of 0, they'd be right in the mix right now.

 

HOI is right that the goaltending has probably cost NJ 3 points relative to the average (actually it's more like 2) - trouble is, NJ didn't give up a 9th overall pick so they would have average goaltending.  

 

That brings me to my 2nd point - if average goaltending is .913, average shooting percentage is 8.7%.  Well guess what, NJ is shooting 9.2%.  Throw out empty net goals and NJ is probably right at the average.  So shooting percentage isn't really one of NJ's problems - it's volume of shots.  That's why a game like last night's is, I think, a step in the right direction - sure the CBGB line didn't get many shots, but the other 3 lines did, and while NJ only scored 2, they could've had several more.  For all the carping about 'not finishing', this really hasn't been NJ's problem for a good part of this season - it's not last season where the goalie is giving up a horrible goal in the first 5 minutes and then NJ is outshooting a team 30-11 from then on and being unable to score.  It's been shot volume - they're simply not generating enough chances to score.  There's too many games where the Devils get below 20 shots.  There's too many games where they don't get 30 shots.  That's what needs to change and I think it slowly is.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Triumph

[Mike Brown]

I think if you take out empty net goals and shootout goals the Devils have scored as many goals as they've given up.  If they had 3 shootout wins instead of 0, they'd be right in the mix right now.

 

HOI is right that the goaltending has probably cost NJ 3 points relative to the average (actually it's more like 2) - trouble is, NJ didn't give up a 9th overall pick so they would have average goaltending.  

 

That brings me to my 2nd point - if average goaltending is .913, average shooting percentage is 8.7%.  Well guess what, NJ is shooting 9.2%.  Throw out empty net goals and NJ is probably right at the average.  So shooting percentage isn't really one of NJ's problems - it's volume of shots.  That's why a game like last night's is, I think, a step in the right direction - sure the CBGB line didn't get many shots, but the other 3 lines did, and while NJ only scored 2, they could've had several more.  For all the carping about 'not finishing', this really hasn't been NJ's problem for a good part of this season.  It's been shot volume - they're simply not generating enough chances to score.

 

This post is full of win.  I agree with everything said.

[Triumph]

The other problem I have with that stat lovers out there is that save percentage does not take into consideration the QUALITY of shots.

 

If a goalie makes 39 saves and lets in one goal, that is an amazing save %.  The saves could have all been floaters from center ice.

 

My point is, Marty seems to make the BIG saves more often.  Again, I am not saying Marty is playing incredible hockey, he is not.

 

However that late save last night stole the Devils a point.  If Cory was in net that one was hitting the twine, and we do not get a point for last night's "effort", or lack thereof.

 

You mean that huge save that Brodeur should've made on Hartnell and that any butterfly goalie handles easily but Brodeur looked like a guy just 86d from a bar on?

 

Brodeur makes 'big saves' because the Devils get leads for him and he's going to save most of the shots at him, that is how goaltending works.

[ThreeCups]

You mean that huge save that Brodeur should've made on Hartnell and that any butterfly goalie handles easily but Brodeur looked like a guy just 86d from a bar on?

 

Brodeur makes 'big saves' because the Devils get leads for him and he's going to save most of the shots at him, that is how goaltending works.

 

Can't save em all.  Bad goal I agree...

 

I do not understand the second part of your statement though?

[Mike Brown]

Brodeur's save against Schenn got us a point.  Brodeur's goal against Hartnell cost us a point.  He has a .902 SV% which isn't good enough for someone playing in 57% of our games.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

The other problem I have with that stat lovers out there is that save percentage does not take into consideration the QUALITY of shots.

 

If a goalie makes 39 saves and lets in one goal, that is an amazing save %.  The saves could have all been floaters from center ice.

 

My point is, Marty seems to make the BIG saves more often.  Again, I am not saying Marty is playing incredible hockey, he is not.

 

However that late save last night stole the Devils a point.  If Cory was in net that one was hitting the twine, and we do not get a point for last night's "effort", or lack thereof.

 

If you can't accept that Marty isn't a very good puck stopper at this point in his career and is very inconsistent then I don't know what to tell you. 

 

Marty's save%s have been low overall for four years now, compared to his peers.  fiesty further fleshed out how those four years overall have not been very good, and it can't ALL be chalked up to "Quality of Shots".  I've pointed out that he had two terrific prolonged stretches in 2011 and 2012...about .920 each time.  His save% was bad last year and it's bad this year.  He is not facing awesome quality shots game in and game out...don't make it sound like he's a victim in all of this.

 

How do you know Cory wouldn't have made that "big" save?  He might've gotten the ones Marty didn't get last night too.    

[ThreeCups]

If you can't accept that Marty isn't a very good puck stopper at this point in his career and is very inconsistent then I don't know what to tell you. 

 

Marty's save%s have been low overall for four years now, compared to his peers.  fiesty further fleshed out how those four years overall have not been very good, and it can't ALL be chalked up to "Quality of Shots".  I've pointed out that he had two terrific prolonged stretches in 2011 and 2012...about .920 each time.  His save% was bad last year and it's bad this year.  He is not facing awesome quality shots game in and game out...don't make it sound like he's a victim in all of this.

 

How do you know Cory wouldn't have made that "big" save?  He might've gotten the ones Marty didn't get last night too.    

 

I can accept it, and have stated as such.

 

It just bothers me to read the people on here ragging on Marty and how he shouldn't play etc etc

 

Cory has not been much better this season.  I agree he is better and is hopefully the future goaltender for this franchise.  

 

Nobody can say for certain who would have made what save, and let other goals in.  But most goalies are not making that save Marty did last night.  Is part luck?  Absolutely

 

Also part intuition/experience

[SterioDesign]

The other problem I have with that stat lovers out there is that save percentage does not take into consideration the QUALITY of shots.

 

If a goalie makes 39 saves and lets in one goal, that is an amazing save %.  The saves could have all been floaters from center ice.

 

My point is, Marty seems to make the BIG saves more often.  Again, I am not saying Marty is playing incredible hockey, he is not.

 

However that late save last night stole the Devils a point.  If Cory was in net that one was hitting the twine, and we do not get a point for last night's "effort", or lack thereof.

 

great post in general. But the thing with our goaltending duo is that we have Brodeur who's gonna make saves that no other goalies would have made, but let in a softie that 97% of any technical regular butterfly goalies would have stop has a routine save.

 

The key about goaltending is being steady and making key saves. I think at least Cory is consistant, he's just not getting goal support.

Edited January 8, 2014 by SterioDesign

[Sneax]

Then don't view it in terms of who is the better goalie. View it in terms of who is our future. Marty is gone, hes got maybe a year of subpar play left.

 

Who knows what Corey feels about this situation and if he is going to walk or not because of it. But you have to think that it is quite possible that this situation does cause him to leave.

 

This franchise is going to be in real fvcking trouble if we lose Corey, some might not believe so but it's true.

 

We lose Corey we essentiall have done this in 4 years,

 

Lost 2 1st round draft picks,

Lost 2 elite players

Lost a top 9 role player.

 

And we will have no real goalie plan for the future, and will just be hopping kinkaid works out.

 

That is a deathknell for this or any franchise. Corey is a priority, we shouldn't be fvcking around with him, if the difference between him or marty starting makes zero difference to the outcome of games.

 

And that is a worst case view, because honestly corey would be much better than broduer if he was allowed to get into a groove. Broduer makes 1 amazing save a night and lets in 2 softies. I'd rather the guy who get sburned on the amazing goal and stops the softies.

[LucifersDog]

Schneider hasn't played up to his standards but he's certainly been better than Brodeur.

Schneider: 19 GP 2.13 GAA, .914 SV%, 2 SO, 99 GA%-, +0.36 GSAA

Brodeur: 25 GP 2.39 GAA, .902 SV%, 3 SO, 112 GA%-, -6.65 GSAA

 

The problem with Brodeur signing another deal here is that it puts (unfair) pressure on DeBoer to have a clearly past his prime legend around, thus creating a situation where he plays more than he should. It also would probably irritate Schneider who would then be unlikely to sign an extension imo. I mean at that point why not wait it out, go to free agency and go to the highest bidder?

 

 

Please stop talking about DeBoer being here next season as the coach. Maybe Marty, Pete and Lou can start a business somewhere other than in NJ next season.

[Daniel]

Um, ok? We can't score goals, but there are 2 ends to the thread, you need to score more goals then the other team and you also need to let in less goals than the other team.

 

Scoring would obviously cover up some defensive holes we have, but guess what, we don't have the pieces and cant get the pieces to fix that.

 

What do we have? A top goal tender in his prime riding the pine. Makes alot of sense.

 

We are a team that is going to have to win close 2-1 games. It's just who we are right now, what we are doing is playing the wrong players to acomplish that.

 

I'm sick of the we need to score more sh!t, we don't have the talent for that. We do however have the talent to win games by not letting the other team score. Corey needs to play, and he needs to play the majority of the starts to get into a groove, not 1 game every 6-7 days.

 

Schneider was given that opportunity, got hurt, and Marty played really well for the next five or six games. 

 

Otherwise, you're right, scorers do not fall from the sky.  And I don't think I'm a Marty cheerleader at this point.  I just feel that obsessing about who's getting the starts (at least for purposes of the ultimate results for this season) and how good or bad you think Marty has been avoids what's really wrong with this team. 

 

At most, you're talking about nudging our way into third place in the division if we got optimal goaltending, whatever you think that might be.  It matters, I suppose, but it's not really the difference between being anything other than what this team really is.

[Sneax]

 

 

You need Vezina level goaltending to make up for how awful the Devils are on offense.  We were expecting that from Schneider, and it hasn't come yet.  And it isn't for lack of DeBoer giving every chance to give Schneider the main role. 

 

Corey has had 4 starts in the last 10

 

over that time he has a save percentage of like .901 to martys .890.

 

If pete was going to give corey a shot at running with the starting job, it would have been after the islander game where he stole the win for us essentially. Instead marty plays the next game

 

 

When you are a back up you typically come in and play against weaker opponents, you have basically no groove or rythmn but you wont be playing the best of the best.

 

Corey is seeing back up level play time, against some of the best teams in the NHL.

 

Let's see what corey looks like when he's given a real role not some sh!t show where pete goes, "hey we know you havent played in 6 days but your in net against chicago on the road".

 

 

 

And edit because I saw your last post. Sure corey got hurt and marty was on fire for like 4-5 games. But much like everything else good ol' PDB does with players, marty has recieved play time due to that stretch of games for the rest of the season, even though his play took a dive off a steep cliff. I mean marty has layed some huge fvcking stinkers, the caps game and the Blue jackets game come to mind, and his work this season as a whole is mighty suspect. I've yet to see corey fall apart against some sh!t bottom feeder team. Broduer at this point in his career is a hot mess at times.

 

As for squeaking into 3rd, that would be huge, we have no first. The last thing I want is for this team to be a draft lottery team in a year we have no 1st. So play as hard as you can to make that pick as meaningless as possible.

 

Also I do agree, this team is not good really. We have no hope of winning anything in the playoffs, but I'd still like to see them make it in and make the fact that we lose this pick as painless as possible.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Sneax

[Triumph]

ThreeCups:  It's simple - 'big saves' have been used to argue for Grant Fuhr as a Hall of Famer, Mike Vernon, etc. - yeah, they don't have big numbers, but they could hold on to a lead and make lots of 'big saves'.  But goalies stop the vast majority of shots - even in Vernon and Fuhr's day they were stopping 89% of pucks directed on goal.  It stands to reason that if they are protecting a lead that they will stop lots of pucks.  The Devils have been scoring like a middle of the pack team (or even better) with Brodeur in net, so he's had more opportunity to make 'big saves'.  Meanwhile he has blown games where NJ scored 4 twice.  

 

The problem with Brodeur hasn't been his play lately, but he should not have been splitting games with Schneider early on.   Brodeur got a 7 game audition and completely flunked it - he should've been out of there in 3 games.  Then Schneider got hurt and Brodeur got in there and played well - indeed, his play then is part of why NJ is still in this race.  Still, Schneider came back and played excellently but was still splitting time with Brodeur.

 

Schneider has to be better but he has faced better competition so far this year and will do so again when he plays Dallas on Thursday.

Schneider was given that opportunity, got hurt, and Marty played really well for the next five or six games. 

 

Otherwise, you're right, scorers do not fall from the sky.  And I don't think I'm a Marty cheerleader at this point.  I just feel that obsessing about who's getting the starts (at least for purposes of the ultimate results for this season) and how good or bad you think Marty has been avoids what's really wrong with this team. 

 

At most, you're talking about nudging our way into third place in the division if we got optimal goaltending, whatever you think that might be.  It matters, I suppose, but it's not really the difference between being anything other than what this team really is.

 

No, that's insane, again.  If Schneider was a .930 goalie and starting 80% of the games, the Devils would have 6-7 more points.  And that's only halfway through the season.

[Sneax]

 

No, that's insane, again. If Schneider was a .930 goalie and starting 80% of the games, the Devils would have 6-7 more points. And that's only halfway through the season.

 

 

Techincally its worth more than 6-7 points given that at the very least 3 of those points were in the division. (Caps game and bluejacks)

[Mike Brown]

Schneider was never given the opportunity to take the starting job.  As I've been saying, give him a span where he plays 4 out of 5 games.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

I can accept it, and have stated as such.

 

It just bothers me to read the people on here ragging on Marty and how he shouldn't play etc etc

 

Cory has not been much better this season.  I agree he is better and is hopefully the future goaltender for this franchise.  

 

Nobody can say for certain who would have made what save, and let other goals in.  But most goalies are not making that save Marty did last night.  Is part luck?  Absolutely

 

Also part intuition/experience

 

Agree in that I will ALWAYS hate when people go the mean-spirited route with Marty. But it's impossible to make a compelling case for a guy who's struggled to keep his save% over .900 over his last 54 GP (a full season's worth for many goalies) and is simply old to keep getting the amount of playing time that Marty currently does. I don't blame Marty for it...I blame DeBoer. Lou got him a guy who's firmly in his prime and DeBoer just won't give him four or five starts to get into a groove. 

[DJ Eco]

Sneax, I agree with everything you've said in the past two pages.

Edited January 8, 2014 by DJ Eco

[ThreeCups]

Agree in that I will ALWAYS hate when people go the mean-spirited route with Marty. But it's impossible to make a compelling case for a guy who's struggled to keep his save% over .900 over his last 54 GP (a full season's worth for many goalies) and is simply old to keep getting the amount of playing time that Marty currently does. I don't blame Marty for it...I blame DeBoer. Lou got him a guy who's firmly in his prime and DeBoer just won't give him four or five starts to get into a groove. 

 

Do you guys thimk this is all Pete's decision making and Lou has nothing to do with it?