Lou on resigning Kovy

[Amberite]

There's no way Parise asks for 9 million with a straight face.

Really? Why not? I agree that it's more than I would imagine he would ask for, but what makes you think he has no right to it? He is the future face of the franchise, he will be a consistent 40+ goal scorer, he is basically the very definition of a complete player.

[squishyx]

I think we will make a strong push for Kovy, but I see there being a problem with Parise down the line. If we land Kovy for lets say 8.5 - 9.0 million, then there is no reason in the world that Parise shouldn't request the same when we need to resign him. Parise, on the whole (when considering defensive play, leadership abilities, and general work ethic), is on the same level as Kovy in terms of importance to the team. Can we really afford to have two $9 million players on the team?

And yes, I think that if we don't sign Kovy, Parise will sign for much less.

Zach will be a RFA, there is a big difference.

[Risky]

Rolston absolutely is a major hindrance to our signing Kovalchuk because he is not nearly as productive as his cost would indicate. $5mm is great for a guy who produces like Zajac or Langenbrunner. At $5mm per, Rolston is ballast on the third line. And a misfit, at that. If Rolston was producing like he was projected to, you could make the argument that Kovalchuk, while a desired luxury, is not a necessity. Even if Kovalchuk were not to return, there would be a major scoring hole to fill in the top 6 that Lou would still have to address while we wait for Tedenby and Josefson to come out of the minors.

As I said when we made the trade, Lou gave up too much not to make a serious offer to keep Kovalchuk for the future. This team was good, but not 2000 good like when we signed Mogilny to put us over the top for the cup. They could win the cup this year but it would be far more unlikely than it was in 2000. Therefore, I feel that Lou felt--and still feels--that he can land Kovalchuk for the long term.

[jkrdevil]

Zach will be a RFA, there is a big difference.

Yes, but they will likely give him a long term deal covering UFA time. My guess Zach gets around a cap hit of 7 million on a long term deal. It is possible to keep both. Move Rolston and they have room to sign both (and Martin and Clarkson). And Zajac doesn't reach UFA until Elias comes off so they would have room for him too.

[Random Poster]

Really? Why not? I agree that it's more than I would imagine he would ask for, but what makes you think he has no right to it? He is the future face of the franchise, he will be a consistent 40+ goal scorer, he is basically the very definition of a complete player.

As of the 09-10 season, here are the NHL's 8-9 million dollar forwards (i think i got them all):

Eric Staal (wow)

Sidney Crosby

Evgeni Malkin

Alex Ovechkin

If you go by that list, then you have to ask yourself is Parise worth 8-9 million in comparison to Crosby/Malkin who are both Cup winners, award winners and multiple 100 pt. scorers and then compare him to Ovechkin who makes 9 million.

IMO, Parise needed to follow up this season with another 40+ goal/90 point effort and then in 2010-11 to command that 8-9 million and to be in a elite class. A Stanley Cup and some hardware helps too.

The player you could most closely look at on that list and maybe compare Parise's salary future with is Eric Staal.

Eric Staal:

472 GP 187 G 229 A 416 Pts.

Zach Parise:

400 GP 157 G 170 A 327 Pts.

You can argue that Parise is about one season of "production" behind Staal based on the games played difference and stats. Roughly 80-90 points or so, which Zach should hit or so we all think if he is to command 8 million. Also, who knows if Carolina overpaid Staal to keep him in that market? That's always a possibility.

IMO, Zach will get at least 7-7.5 million if he puts up 80 this season and 80-85 next season. 8 million is certainly not out of the question, either if he can put 40+/90+ up in 10-11. He will not get 9 million, unless there's some higher point production surprise or Cup/hardware in his future.

Again, it's all opinion. If you pay a player elite/superstar money, then he's got to be in that class.

[msweet]

Parise is 2011's problem

I sense Rolston will not be a problem by then, one way or another.

Clarkson (RFA), Martin, and Mottau (or his replacement, a defensive #3/#4) are the issues.

... we also may need a #1 goaltender by 2011

[DaneykoIsGod]

Classic Louspeak. The guy coulda been talking about a sandwich at Panera.

"I try and let the fans and the media not get in the way of doing what the right thing is," Lamoriello said, dancing around the question of whether he thinks he'd order a turkey sandwich for lunch. "And right now my focus as hungry guy is to eat the best-prepared sandwich and not worry about anything other than getting ready for that.

"I've been pleased with the turkey sandwich from day one. I knew there would be condiments. The thing I've been most pleased with is it's been great on its own and quality as part of the meal. The interraction, it fits right in with the soup. Those are always things that are unknowns until you have the sandwich. The bottom line is taste. I don't want anything to get in the way of that."

[DevilNurn]

Classic Louspeak. The guy coulda been talking about a sandwich at Panera.

"I try and let the fans and the media not get in the way of doing what the right thing is," Lamoriello said, dancing around the question of whether he thinks he'd order a turkey sandwich for lunch. "And right now my focus as hungry guy is to eat the best-prepared sandwich and not worry about anything other than getting ready for that.

"I've been pleased with the turkey sandwich from day one. I knew there would be condiments. The thing I've been most pleased with is it's been great on its own and quality as part of the meal. The interraction, it fits right in with the soup. Those are always things that are unknowns until you have the sandwich. The bottom line is taste. I don't want anything to get in the way of that."

[skullsmasher]

Well this year we have to worry about resigning Kovalchuk, Paul Martin, Clarkson etc..while considering the free agents in 2011 such as Parise, Langenbrunner... As much as I want to be wrong, I seriously doubt that Kovalchuk will be here next year, unless he takes way less money then he turned down in Atlanta, or Lou does something completely out of character.

[Devs3cups]

Zach will be a RFA, there is a big difference.

+100

[Devs3cups]

I would love to re-sign kovy, but if we re-sign him we may lose Parise...So Lou, if this is the case keep Parise.

P.S get Rolston out of town!

He is finished!

Edited March 30, 2010 by Devs3cups

[LucifersDog]

After Lou's screw ups with Zubrus and then Rolston he needs to sign Kovy. Lou has made many bad deals like Pando & etc. If he doesn't atone himself and if Vanderbeek doesn't have the money then screw the Devils. Marty is on his last legs trade him. Pando should be gone for ever. Rolston is a has been, get rid of him. White is done, along with Mottau and Bryce Salavdor. The 4th line needs improvement no Peters or PL#. dump them. Let's rebuild around Kovy.

[Devs4LIFE]

I think resigning Kovy would mean the end of Elias.

[Random Poster]

I think resigning Kovy would mean the end of Elias.

Elias has a no-movement clause.

[Devil Dan 56]

After Lou's screw ups with Zubrus and then Rolston he needs to sign Kovy. Lou has made many bad deals like Pando & etc. If he doesn't atone himself and if Vanderbeek doesn't have the money then screw the Devils. Marty is on his last legs trade him. Pando should be gone for ever. Rolston is a has been, get rid of him. White is done, along with Mottau and Bryce Salavdor. The 4th line needs improvement no Peters or PL#. dump them. Let's rebuild around Kovy.

I hope that works out nicely on your copy of EA Sports NHL'10.

[Triumph]

You're right, those $500k and 700k contracts the Devils have to fill 3rd and 4th line roles are hampering them to re-sign Kovalchuk.....

great strawman. that isn't my point, and you know it. would i move elias to sign kovalchuk long-term? absolutely. would i move salvador? sure, terrific, he can go. and so on - all non-zajacs, parises, brodeurs, and (i guess) langenbrunners are included in this.

Rolston's contract has nothing to do with playing the same position. It has to do with having a player who is one foot from finished possibly preventing them from signing a superstar in his prime.

okay so you just restated the same opinion again without adding any new information.

That's your own opinion. A falling salary cap will effect the Devils (or any teams) ability to sign players. The Devils have other FA's to worry about, not just Kovalchuk.

However, a rising cap does make for more competition and that is true. More $ = more suitors. I think 62 million is a severe reach and it's not a realistic number to even use in theoretic discussion. Even with a realistic rising cap number, how many teams can he really play for (or would want to play for) that can pay him (or want to pay him) what he wants AND give him a shot to win? LA Kings? Pull a Hossa and sign for one year with a team to win a Cup? Go to the KHL and say fvck it?

my point with the rising salary cap is that you can throw every single team that is always interested in top free agents right into the mix. you can throw detroit and toronto and the rangers and the flyers and any number of other teams who are cap-fvcked and therefore cannot really seriously pursue kovalchuk. not to mention that if half these teams weren't cap-fvcked, the devils almost certainly don't ever manage to trade for kovalchuk, because a falling salary cap is the only thing keeping most of these teams clutching on to their prospects. it's just not even a possibility that arises - compared to what a team like the flyers could offer in trade, the devils would have been laughed out of the room. the devils traded a late round 1st in a mediocre draft, a 25 goal wing with not much else going for him, a bottom 6 center prospect (who could be an excellent 3rd line center, but still), and a defenseman who's overpaid and not providing much value, for one of the best scorers of the generation. compared to the pre-lockout ransoms, it's not even close.

If you're basing a falling salary cap as the main factor working in the Devils favor, i disagree based on the Devils other needs come July 1st. A falling cap this summer hurts the Devils more then a rising one.

it absolutely helps the devils. obviously what would be best is if the cap went up around $1 million - that's really the best case for new jersey, it buys them the breathing room to sign kovalchuk and martin and hope to power through 11-12 when a lot of big, lumpy contracts go bye-bye.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Triumph

[cubanjd305]

I hope that works out nicely on your copy of EA Sports NHL'10.

It worked on mine , although I kept Bryce and eventually Marty just didn't want to resign...what an a$$

Seriously....Lou has to sit down with Rolston and just implore him to retire, buy him out under the table, something!

Would there be a penalty if the Devils send down (waive) Pandolfo and White? I don't know who'd claim them anyways, but that's $5.5M right there. We can get their production for much...muuuuuch less.

Edited March 30, 2010 by cubanjd305

[Sarge18]

In respects to all the hypothetical cap level discussion. From Dregger and Bettman on NHL live in the past two weeks. The cap is looking to stay stable again for next year. It will fall somewhere in the +/- 1m from where it is now.

Please resume the previous discussions on how the cap level affect's Kovy's chance of resigning.

[Devils731]

Seriously....Lou has to sit down with Rolston and just implore him to retire, buy him out under the table, something!

Would there be a penalty if the Devils send down (waive) Pandolfo and White? I don't know who'd claim them anyways, but that's $5.5M right there. We can get their production for much...muuuuuch less.

Rolston retiring doesn't really help. If he does it before the Devils got him to waive his NTC then the Devils are stuck with the cap hit and if he retired right after the Devils moved him the league would probably void the trade and the Devils would be stuck with the cap hit.

You can send Pando down and clear his cap space.

White has a NMC, I believe, so you can't move him anywhere without his permission. It may only be a NTC though. Salvador has no NTC, though, and him and White are of similar value, although White is 2 years or so younger, so Salvador would likely be moved before White, just due to not having a NTC clause and most teams probably not having a huge preference between the two, if you were looking to trade one of them.

[Random Poster]

great strawman. that isn't my point, and you know it. would i move elias to sign kovalchuk long-term? absolutely. would i move salvador? sure, terrific, he can go. and so on - all non-zajacs, parises, brodeurs, and (i guess) langenbrunners are included in this.

Strawman. That's a good one. Did you dig into the Debate Club Geeks Handbook for that one? lol

Why not understand that the albatross which is Brian Rolston could very well cost the Devils Kovalchuk? It's a reasonable argument.

okay so you just restated the same opinion again without adding any new information.

Just in case you didn't quite get it the first time!

my point with the rising salary cap is that you can throw every single team that is always interested in top free agents right into the mix. you can throw detroit and toronto and the rangers and the flyers and any number of other teams who are cap-fvcked and therefore cannot really seriously pursue kovalchuk.

I agree with the basis of this theory in principle (unless the Rangers would convert Gaborik or Kovalchuk to LW or have one play on the second line.....blah blah). The cap is not going to rise in the foreseeable future to the levels where those teams can start to pillage rosters again. That's why i said it's not a reasonable scenario you're discussing and it's not going to be a reality this summer.

In the present terms of what will happen cap wise, a falling cap hurts the Devils. A rising cap helps the Devils. The only way a rising cap hurts the Devils is if it goes up to any sort of level in which you're waxing about. Even then it's not a certainty those Fat Cat teams are a destination based on past examples.

And even though i snipped the quote, i think 1 million rise would help as well. They're going to need it.

[Devils731]

Why not understand that the albatross which is Brian Rolston could very well cost the Devils Kovalchuk? It's a reasonable argument.

The point would be that a team's constraints in the salary cap world are the sum of the teams contracts so no contract costs you signing someone anymore than any other amount of contracts totaling the same sum costs you signing that person. You might like some contracts and dislike others, but that's looking at those contracts at their base levels while signing new players deals with the total of all contracts.

Rolston's contract doesn't cost the team anymore than Marty does, or Zajac and Zubrus, or Langs and Parise. You may hate Rolston's contract more, in terms of value, but in terms of signing Kovy it's no more harmful than a lot of other scenarios, some of which are listed.

[cubanjd305]

Rolston retiring doesn't really help. If he does it before the Devils got him to waive his NTC then the Devils are stuck with the cap hit and if he retired right after the Devils moved him the league would probably void the trade and the Devils would be stuck with the cap hit.

You can send Pando down and clear his cap space.

White has a NMC, I believe, so you can't move him anywhere without his permission. It may only be a NTC though. Salvador has no NTC, though, and him and White are of similar value, although White is 2 years or so younger, so Salvador would likely be moved before White, just due to not having a NTC clause and most teams probably not having a huge preference between the two, if you were looking to trade one of them.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Did not know that about Rolston. We're officially stuck with him. Pretty much the only move to clear is the sending down of Pando and White (if it is in fact only NTC).

Crap

[Devils731]

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Did not know that about Rolston. We're officially stuck with him. Pretty much the only move to clear is the sending down of Pando and White (if it is in fact only NTC).

Crap

There are other options, we just don't know which ones other GMs will accept.

[Random Poster]

The point would be that a team's constraints in the salary cap world are the sum of the teams contracts so no contract costs you signing someone anymore than any other amount of contracts totaling the same sum costs you signing that person. You might like some contracts and dislike others, but that's looking at those contracts at their base levels while signing new players deals with the total of all contracts.

That's a "sum of the whole" cap theory. When you deal with unproductive players with bad deals it prevents you from replacing them with more productive players for the same cap hit, no matter how you try to blend it in with the overall roster.

If you want to talk sum of the whole, say Kovalchuk costs 8 million to sign as a cap hit. Rolston and Pandolfo's cap hit would pretty much be a trade off to that. There's a case where the sum of two unproductive players of the whole benefits without having to dump a productive/value player of the same salary.

If you sign enough player(s) to bad deals, it's going to eventually bite you when it's time to sign player(s) you need to sign. The main problem with Rolston is you just can't up and dump him. If Rolston could be dumped, then this isn't a big deal in retrospect as you're clearing room you need to clear.

Rolston's contract doesn't cost the team anymore than Marty does, or Zajac and Zubrus, or Langs and Parise. You may hate Rolston's contract more, in terms of value, but in terms of signing Kovy it's no more harmful than a lot of other scenarios, some of which are listed.

There's a difference. You've got a player of diminishing value and production whom it looks like you're stuck with. If Rolston was still potting 30+ goals or a player that doesn't look like he's one foot in, then the loss of Kovalchuk might not sting as much.

Edited March 30, 2010 by SJP20

[Devils731]

I don't entirely agree with that. That's a "sum of the whole" theory. You can't hide bad contracts in with the rest and say it's the sum of the whole. Hell, that's like Rolston giving the appearance he sucks less just because playing with better players and scoring in an empty net.

If you sign enough player(s) to bad deals, it's going to eventually bite you when it's time to sign player(s) you need to sign. The main problem with Rolston is you just can't up and dump him. If Rolston could be dumped, then this isn't a big deal in retrospect as you're clearing room you need to clear.

There's a difference. You've got a player of diminishing value and production whom it looks like you're stuck with. If Rolston was still potting 30+ goals or a player that doesn't look like he's one foot in, then the loss of Kovalchuk might not sting as much.

I understand everything you're saying and none of it's wrong. It's a terminology/point of view difference.

Rolston's contract is not good but it, in itself, does not cost the team signing Kovy anymore than a good 5 million dollar contract does, because they both occupy the same 5 million dollar space.

To say it another way, everyone would rather sign Kovy than keep Rolston's contract around, but having Marty's deal is preventing signing Kovy about the same, you just don't mind because Marty's contract isn't bad.

It's a micro/macro things a bit, you're looking at Rolston's contract value return as hurting the teams total possible talent return(micro), but in terms of preventing signing Kovy one 5 million dollar contract prevents his signing the same as any other setup of 5 million dollars worth of contracts(macro). So the terminology of "costing" the team signing Kovy wouldn't be proper because looking at the cap is more macro, saying that Rolston's poor contract is preventing the team from raising it's total talent level under the cap through better usage of his cap space would be more true because looking at it through Rolston's contract makes it more micro.