Keep or Trade?

[Pepperkorn]

I don't think they had no emotion, I just think they got outplayed, and really had no idea how to react to that, hence the bad penalties. The way to beat the Devils is to out-Devil them.. the Senators took 4 games to figure it out. You put a man on every Devil, and you never let them get free ice. The Islanders did it perfectly last night. Only goal was on an unstoppable Brylin pass.

The fact is, the Devils are a small, quick team. The Islanders weren't letting them use their quickness. As a result, they were getting beat in the corners and at the front of the net. That's where the Devils can be beat. Plus, they don't have a power play.

Without Langenbrunner and Stevenson, it makes the size problem even more apparent.

And no, Brodeur can't start every game, but he's fine now. Schwab should have 10-14 starts by the end of the season though.

First off WC asked for our emotional picks

i think it's a really good excercise in really seeing what the devils have got. I mean this is as bare bones as i can get it emotionally speaking. and it smarts cutting out some of these guys too! so with the refuse you assume your picking up size et al... right? I mean I don't want to play with an 8-10 man roster, Triumph and 2 forwards I think is all I've got left (I forgot my list already heehee)

[Pepperkorn]

You never know with Lou on what he is going to do. Lou once said I fill what's empty, I empty whats full and I scratch what itches.

Yeah... so did Turner Lou, and look where THAT got him...

[NJayDevil]

I guess NJay's given up on Little G?!?! Say it ain't so!

No I ain't giving up on Little G. Some people here can't see past his height (go figure, eh.) and how he will never been able to succeed. To me he's an untouchable since he's this years UNSUNG HERO, but if I put him on the list, I wouldn't have the patience to reply to all the crap people would post about how G shouldn't be on there.

I love Little G, he's doing great this year, and he will do great in the playoffs, on the Devils. And next year too, on the Devils.

[westcoastdevfan]

At times, wcdf, but I don't trust that 10th. I think by the end of the year we will end up around 20th; where I thought we should have been last year, but not really good enough to be threatening. Last night I saw the power play exhibit the same problems it has in the past. All other teams have to do is pursue the puck carrier, and the Devils just have no way of finding the open man.

Big power play games against Pittsburgh, Buffalo, and Boston don't convince me.

I see the PP finishing middle of the pack, 15th or so. I have always found PP's a bit overrated, as we proved last year. Even in the middle of the pack, I don't consider our PP as a weakness.

The only true weakness I see with this team is the ability to finish. They generate plenty of oportunities to score only to waste them by shooting wide or into the goalies chest.

[moustic]

this thread is really interesting...

thanks you wcdf

[Jerrydevil]

NJay, I feel the way you do about Gionta. I believe in the not-too-distant future, he will be a leading offensive player on this team. That's right, a first-line player

[Triumph]

wcdf speaks of players who shoot into goalies' chests, Gionta is the main offender. I do not think he will ever develop a touch around the net, Jerry. He's a great competitor. He just doesn't have a great shot. His numbers didn't improve from Year 1 to Year 4 of college. He didn't have great goal numbers in the AHL.

I usually agree with you, Jerry. We'll just have to disagree on this.

[GA Devil]

"Easily" Expendable:

Brown

Albelin

Larionov

Bicek

Rasmussen

Rupp

Berglund

Rather not see go, but will get an OK return:

Friesen

Gionta

Brylin

Gomez (I want him to be a lifetime Devil, tho.)

Stevenson

Marshall

Pandolfo (Another Devil lifer, methinks.)

I would want something substantial in return:

White (I think he's close to untouchable. He does the dirty work in the defensive end.)

Elias (Has the most skills, is the most dangerous. But I don't see him as indispensable.)

Rafalski (He almost made the indispensable list. I would only let him go if the other team said if he's not included the deal doesn't get done. Say for an Iginla, or some such player.)

Indispensable:

Stevens

Martin (Both he and Hale are the Devils future on the Blueline. Playing for Burns on a defending Stanley Cup Champ team in your rookie year speks volumes about these guys and their future)

Madden (Simply because he is such a large part of the Devils identity right now. I can't even imagine him wearing another sweater.)

Langenbrunner (Just because. Not sure I can adequately explain why.)

Hale (See Martin)

Brodeur

[NJayDevil]

wcdf speaks of players who shoot into goalies' chests, Gionta is the main offender. I do not think he will ever develop a touch around the net, Jerry. He's a great competitor. He just doesn't have a great shot. His numbers didn't improve from Year 1 to Year 4 of college. He didn't have great goal numbers in the AHL.

I usually agree with you, Jerry. We'll just have to disagree on this.

Noone was worse than that then Bob Carpenter and Randy McKay. They would have been 200 goal scorers if the goal of the game was the hit the goalie chests.

And Little G stats for the record:

GP G A PTS

1996-97 Niagara MTJHL 50 57 70 127

1995-96 Niagara MTJHL 51 47 44 91

1994-95 Rochester NEJHL 28 52 37 89

127 points in 50 games. 91 points in 51 games. 89 points in 28 games. That's good sh!t.

His first NHL year was 2001-02 and in 33 games on the 2nd worst Devils team in the past decade, he was a +10.

He has the skills to be a 25-30 goal scorer. People say it takes a player atleast 5 years to really get their career going, what makes Little G any different? Nothing. He's got just as much talent and heart as the next guy.

[Sarge18]

[And Little G stats for the record:

GP G A PTS

1996-97 Niagara MTJHL 50 57 70 127

1995-96 Niagara MTJHL 51 47 44 91

1994-95 Rochester NEJHL 28 52 37 89

127 points in 50 games. 91 points in 51 games. 89 points in 28 games. That's good sh!t.

OK i understand the use of stats to defend ones position in a debate, but from HIGHSCHOOL? Come on Njay you know that has zero bearing on what he is capable of doing at this level.

[NJayDevil]

Check his college stats. 35-40 games, 60+ points each season, consistance, that has bearing on what he does now.

And he was only in Albany for a year before getting called up. That's abnormal in this organization.

[Tretyak 20]

I don't really think the Devils are in a position to trade much of anything without creating holes in the lineup, honestly. It's weird because the Devils are such a deep team, until you start looking at sending away 2 or 3 guys for one. Then holes start opening up that you can't really fill.

Hale and Martin are both untouchable. Both are among the top few prospect D's in the league. Hale has more up-side IMO, but both will likely be stars. Add to that the Devils' current D situation...Daneyko gone, Albelin in his last year, Stevens likely in his last year and a slight chance of losing Niedermayer to free agency.

I'll add one thing to the Gionta argument, also. Has anybody noticed to how many penalties he draws? Seems to me that his play results in Devils PP's more often than any other single player. I'm not talking about dives either. Because of his work ethic, his size and a litte bit of "pest" factor, he ends up getting taken down with legit trips, hooks, and high sticks alot, and most get called.

[poohbear]

I guess NJay's given up on Little G?!?!  Say it ain't so! 

No I ain't giving up on Little G. Some people here can't see past his height (go figure, eh.) and how he will never been able to succeed. To me he's an untouchable since he's this years UNSUNG HERO, but if I put him on the list, I wouldn't have the patience to reply to all the crap people would post about how G shouldn't be on there.

I love Little G, he's doing great this year, and he will do great in the playoffs, on the Devils. And next year too, on the Devils.

That's better!!!!

[poohbear]

wcdf speaks of players who shoot into goalies' chests, Gionta is the main offender. I do not think he will ever develop a touch around the net, Jerry. He's a great competitor. He just doesn't have a great shot. His numbers didn't improve from Year 1 to Year 4 of college. He didn't have great goal numbers in the AHL.

I usually agree with you, Jerry. We'll just have to disagree on this.

But...He doesn't need a shot. HE could fit through the five hole!

I just love G! He's zippy!

[Triumph]

Abnormal for a player to spend a half year in the AHL as a Devil, yes, but Gionta spent 4 years in college, a rarity for the Devils as well. Morrison and Madden were two other players to do this, but they had the misfortune of playing center, the position where the Devils were strongest for years.

I'm not arguing Gionta does not have a place on this team, but it's on the 3rd or 4th line. There he is excellent. But the top two lines, Gionta is not cut out for. He doesn't have a scorer's shot. He doesn't have the quick release of Martin St. Louis or Steve Sullivan. I look at his NHL career.. 23 goals in 126 games, 3 goals in 30 playoff games. I just don't see scorer emerging from that. We'll see; maybe he will get stronger on his skates, become more agile, or improve his shot.

Carpenter was never a scorer for the Devils, and Randy McKay was only a scorer when the Devils' lack of depth forced him into that position. Gionta is fast joining their ranks.

[MissionHockey]

Well you have to give to get so I'll list the players that i think would get us a good return first:

Rafalski-won't be a number 1 defenseman but could put up 50 points. It also kind of depends on how Martin develops. I see Martin as Rafalski with a harder shot.

Friesen-has been ticking me off and is on pace for a horrible year. He is streaky but he is clutch and that might be useful to trade.

Gomez- that basicly describes my feelings toward his play. But he is a 24 year old proven point producer that makes only 1 million a season. Lots of Gms would jump at that.

Rupp- Our only big center and I like him and I think he could make a decent 2nd line forward. He needs to be meaner though and I don't see that in him.

White-Too many bonehead penalties. If he is traded for another defenseman I wouldn't mind seeing him on his way out.

Larianov-Thats right, Larianov, I think for a team thats borderline and looking for leadership he could be on his way out. Not much else he can do anyway.

Berglund-decent upside. Thats all he has going for him.

Untouchable:

Brodeur-com'on

Stevens-heart of the team

Niedermayer-See last years playoffs

Keepers:

Elias-My favorite player so I'm biased. But is becoming dangerous with the puck again and if Lou can get this man some linemates we have ourselves and 80 point scorer easy.

Langenbrunner-(sigh) THE TEAM NEEDS YOU BACK JAMIE!! Thats all I have to say.

Madden-Probably the most important forward on the team.

Pandolfo-the perfect compliment to Madden. I'd hate to see one or the other go.

Martin-See Rafalski

Hale-has been compared to Adam Foote. He is a big part of the future.

Useless:

Sean Brown

Jiri Ballsac-I mean Bicek

[Weekes Head]

Well, according to this ESPN poster, Gionta is underpaid:

"I was interested to find out that our 2nd highest shooter was only making 600,000.

Now to most of us this seems like a lot, but for someone on an NHL team, that just won the cup, and had been our 2nd highest shooter.

I think hes underpaid. "

[Derek21]

Why Rafalski, White and Friesen? Because if the right deal came along, they can get back something substantial in return.

Are the Devils really going to re-sign both Niedermayer and Rafalski? I wouldn't bet on it. Not the way Lamoriello works. That's why both Martin and Hale have been brought along so rapidly. Because the Devils are preparing for that just in case. And Martin is the perfect replacement for Rafalski. He has improved already on D and his passing skills and shot are solid. I really am impressed with his progress.

Colin White is overrated. He just isn't as good as some people think. Niedermayer covers a lot of mistakes for him. I think Hale will be better. They play similar styles. White is still a bit of a hothead and can take his share of bad penalties. He also can be caught out of position. He has the perfect D partner and people overlook that.

Friesen is a nice player but what the hell has he done without Nieuwendyk this season? He hasn't fit in with any current Dev yet. If you could get someone good back for him, he could be moved.

Ditto for Gomez. Gomez really is not a Devil type of player. He is poor in his own end and is one dimensional. If he possessed a better shot, he wouldn't be so predictable. Unless it changes, this could be the season Gomez goes elsewhere.

I'm not saying all these guys are going to be traded. But if Lou was to upgrade his offense and get say a Satan back, the Sabres would ask for a proven player. Rafalski would make sense. The Sabres D stinks and they might ask for him. Or a package of Colin White and another forward. And no, they wouldn't ask for Gomez. They already have enough smallish centers.

You aren't getting much in return for a role player like Rasmussen or Gionta. Gionta is a sparkplug.

Of course, I realize how good Rafalski is. But if you upgrade another area on your team, you have to give something of value up.

Edited December 31, 2003 by Derek21

[Pepperkorn]

Well, according to this ESPN poster, Gionta is underpaid:

"I was interested to find out that our 2nd highest shooter was only making 600,000.

Now to most of us this seems like a lot, but for someone on an NHL team, that just won the cup, and had been our 2nd highest shooter.

I think hes underpaid. "

must be Harvest posting over there!

[JesterDevil]

Untouchables:

Madden

Stevens

Nieds

White

Raf

Brylin

Langs

That's our core, without them we're nothing

Players who we'd have to get a steal to trade

Hale

Martin

Elias

Gomez

Pando

Friesen

Ahonen

Everyone else I would trade for anything to make the team better

[Pepperkorn]

Whitey is NOT over-rated

He's hardly a hothead anymore. I'm not saying he's still learning because, yeah he's too old for that now, but he's making better and better defensive plays IMO. I think he still has to learn to use his weight more (as in find his center of gravity and just get really solid on the ice). That's what I really wish for. He's not as effective as he could be But he's getting it and he's hungry for the most part.

Yeah, and I think it's his teammates that make him so trading him would bring in a lot and a non-Devil Whitey, I suspect would be pretty much harmless - he'd stagnate and jelly up for sure. THAT is why you don't see his value Derek -- you're seeing him through the eyes of a Ranger fan! LOL!

So since I always have to go off on a tangeant...I'm sort of starting to wonder if maybe Stevens isn't a serious driving force in the continued attention to players' growth. Maybe it's just because I follow them so closely, but the Devils take great care in personal development - and the players are doing it in a non-selfish way. They're called average parts because away from this team they're going to stagnate. We call it intangible but really THAT I think is what makes Stevens the Captain and pretty damn near invaluable. That's what we (who get what the Devils are all about) are afraid will be gone when he retires -not the hits or the leading by example. It's the entire team concept see...it's values and WHY there are rules - moral character kind of rules - 10 commandment things - it's the only way to be truly effective -- holy crud... I'm starting to sound like Steven Covey now aren't I... forget it I'm a dork nevermind ...

[Pepperkorn]

OK and another thing... help me out here people...

Hale. He's dull guys. the NHL isn't giving him the spark he should have. Sending him down might total dull him up though.... it's just like a sluggish puppy. Puppies aren't supposed to be sluggish. And I don't see that he's scared or overthinking... I see a dim bulb and I don't know what to do about it.... so you all tell me why I'm wrong - admittedly I haven't seen enough games this year... but i still need to be sold on this guy.

[Triumph]

The Devils have traded too many defensemen to deal Colin White. Hale *might* be better, but that will be in 3 years when he is Colin's age. Mitchell, Jason Smith, Souray.. we kept White. We're going to keep White. Yes, he makes mistakes, but he's progressed a long way from 2000-01.

Friesen is untouchable until he goes south in the playoffs. He's not playing his best hockey, but he's a streaky scorer. A good forechecking center would work best with him, but we don't have a good forechecking center. It would be very unconventional of Lou to deal someone like Friesen.. especially for an overrated left wing like Miro Satan. The Devils need a center first anyway.

Martin will have to get a hell of a lot faster to 'replace' Rafalski. I agree that #27 and #28 are unlikely to both be Devils in 2005. I like what I see out of him so far.

Edited December 31, 2003 by Triumph

[Jas0nMacIsaac]

I'l look at it from the other teams point of view. If we are looking for a scorer it will be from a team that is struggling so they will want cheap younger players. Here is a list of players that they would be interested in:

1.) Gomez (OK)

2.) Parise (NO)

3.) Hale/Martin (NO)

4.) Gionta (MAYBE)

5.) Berglund (OK)

6.) Rupp (OK)

I wuld have included Ahonen to the list but the goalie market is dead right now.

Players like Friesen, White and Rafalski could be moved but there would be some money issues. White is overpayed, Friesen and Rafalski both cost alot.

[Pepperkorn]

Jason -- tell me why i should like Hale.

please

Tri - you sound as convinced as me so i won't ask you!