2019-2020 Training Camp Roster

[jagknife]

For me, my biggest concern as we approach Friday is Hynes saying that Boqvist can slot in with the 3rd and 4th lines, or the insinuation of rolling him to the press box. He deserves a more significant role than that, based solely on what he showed in the preseason alone. Its more the 4th line/healthy scratch potential that bothers me, than the 3rd, because of the actual amount of talent we finally have for our top 6.

[Crisis]

8 minutes ago, jagknife said:

For me, my biggest concern as we approach Friday is Hynes saying that Boqvist can slot in with the 3rd and 4th lines, or the insinuation of rolling him to the press box. He deserves a more significant role than that, based solely on what he showed in the preseason alone. Its more the 4th line/healthy scratch potential that bothers me, than the 3rd, because of the actual amount of talent we finally have for our top 6.

Injuries are inevitable.  Starting him out of the top 6 to feel out the NHL and eventually playing his way in or filling in for someone who is isn't 100% seems reasonable at this point. 

[jagknife]

5 minutes ago, Crisis said:

Injuries are inevitable.  Starting him out of the top 6 to feel out the NHL and eventually playing his way in or filling in for someone who is isn't 100% seems reasonable at this point. 

Agreed, its more the idea of him being scratched that irks the hell out of me.

[DevsMan84]

2 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I think it simply comes down to Shero and Hynes not seeing enough there that they could envision Smith figuring enough out after nine games.  Smith did next to nothing to earn the chance, really...he had every opportunity to show that he was ready to seize an NHL spot, and he didn't...on the flip side, Boqvist did. 

I think MD2020's take is pretty fair...the kid really should be aggravated with himself for not showing more, especially after last year's preseason (which kind of gave him an "in")...I think Shero and Hynes are disappointed too, both that he didn't play better, and that they couldn't justify giving him a roster spot. 

Butcher is signed to a three-year deal...if he were to start slow, it's not like they're not going to stick with him and give him a chance to get out of it.  As for Mueller, he's supposed to bring a different skillset altogether (more of a defensive defenseman of course)...he really needs to both show he CAN do his job AND stay healthy this year or it's soyonara, but I never really saw Smith as a replacement over Mueller...I always saw it more that two defensemen who play entirely different games. 

I agree in that I'm not sure Smith will benefit a ton from being an overager in juniors, but I don't see what occasional game action in the NHL (with a glut of defensemen who can provide offense already) will do for him either...he's probably not feeling terribly confident right now.  We've been through it...maybe Shero and Hynes are right.  Maybe for whatever the reason(s), they're truly dead on, in that this kid, much as they hoped and as much as WE hoped he'd be ready, simply isn't. 

Basically, in the end, I put this far more on Smith than I do Shero and Hynes.  He had a fair shot.  He didn't do nearly enough with it. 

Every player goes through a rough few games.  If I was to take the typical Palmieri 10-game stretch where he is invisible once a season, I could make assumptions that he is just not an effective player because I am judging him at his worst 10 games.  Not only that, but many on here would be screaming that 10 games is not a large enough sample size.  Well how is 5 rough preseason games a large enough sample size?

I am really glad he will get the good feels by being named Captain of Spokane and beating up on 16 year olds for the next season, but it does zip for his development.

But hey, we still have Rooney!

[Jerzey]

Maybe they felt confidence was a big issue with him and being captain of a team that has a chance to win the championship will boost it. 

[mfitz804]

You could’ve given him the 9 games. Maybe DevsMan84 is right, maybe he just had a bad couple games at the wrong time. 

BUT, that assumes the decision was made solely on how he performed in the games. The team is privy to way more information than we are, everything that happens in practice, during training, etc. Maybe he isn’t mentally ready. 

There could be much more at play than we know. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

42 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

Every player goes through a rough few games.  If I was to take the typical Palmieri 10-game stretch where he is invisible once a season, I could make assumptions that he is just not an effective player because I am judging him at his worst 10 games.  Not only that, but many on here would be screaming that 10 games is not a large enough sample size.  Well how is 5 rough preseason games a large enough sample size?

I am really glad he will get the good feels by being named Captain of Spokane and beating up on 16 year olds for the next season, but it does zip for his development.

But hey, we still have Rooney!

C'mon, the bolded makes no sense...you'd have to ignore everything Palms has done as a Devil to make an assumption like that.  Palms has put together a track record...you know full well that over 82 GP, he should net 25-30 G (or at least score at that rate if he misses some games...he's at 29.4 G per 82 GP in a Devil uniform)...he'll go hot and cold, but you can pretty much bank on both of those happening in-season at this point in his career.  You have a four-season sample size that shows all of this...he is not necessarily consistent within a season, but he's consistent across seasons.

You're giving Smith respect that he hasn't earned yet...not at the NHL level, anyway (and clearly he hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt from the Devils).  Based on an underwhelming preseason, and what we HOPE he can do, should he really have been gifted a roster spot?  And preseason games are used by teams to try to figure out if a young kid like Smith is ready (or ready enough to get a nine-game look, where applicable).  It's not like the Devils are the only team to witness a preseason sample size similar to Smith and make the same kind of decision on a young player's immediate future based on that size. 

 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

5 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

You could’ve given him the 9 games. Maybe DevsMan84 is right, maybe he just had a bad couple games at the wrong time. 

BUT, that assumes the decision was made solely on how he performed in the games. The team is privy to way more information than we are, everything that happens in practice, during training, etc. Maybe he isn’t mentally ready. 

There could be much more at play than we know. 

Fair point...for all we know, Smith could be feeling a bit shaken right now.  This could be his first real taste of adversity as a hockey player. 

[DevsMan84]

14 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

C'mon, the bolded makes no sense...you'd have to ignore everything Palms has done as a Devil to make an assumption like that.  Palms has put together a track record...you know full well that over 82 GP, he should net 25-30 G (or at least score at that rate if he misses some games...he's at 29.4 G per 82 GP in a Devil uniform)...he'll go hot and cold, but you can pretty much bank on both of those happening in-season at this point in his career.  You have a four-season sample size that shows all of this...he is not necessarily consistent within a season, but he's consistent across seasons.

You're giving Smith respect that he hasn't earned yet...not at the NHL level, anyway (and clearly he hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt from the Devils).  Based on an underwhelming preseason, and what we HOPE he can do, should he really have been gifted a roster spot?  And preseason games are used by teams to try to figure out if a young kid like Smith is ready (or ready enough to get a nine-game look, where applicable).  It's not like the Devils are the only team to witness a preseason sample size similar to Smith and make the same kind of decision on a young player's immediate future based on that size. 

 

But if we didn't know about Palm's other body of work, you would think he is a poor player.  That is what we are doing with Smith.

I would much rather see if Smith can figure it out in those 9 games while risking losing Rooney instead of Smith being sent back to Spokane to be an overager and do little to no development.

The whole idea is to see if you can take steps to improve your roster at any chance you can get.  Instead, we are handcuffing ourselves out of fear of risk losing guys like Rooney.  I just don't like the mentality of possible slowing down progress just because you are afraid of moving on from mediocrity.

[moustic]

I'm pretty sure the staff make this decision without thinking at guy like Rooney (I don't think any players were even claim by any teams this year)
It was only linked to the fact that Smith wasn't ready (his play shows that... his mental ? I dunno but i have whole confidence in the staff to judge that) 

It's not the end of the word for him and for us.

What's worry me... it's that we don't have an incredible D corps (and he couldn't crack it) 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Just now, DevsMan84 said:

But if we didn't know about Palm's other body of work, you would think he is a poor player.  That is what we are doing with Smith.

I would much rather see if Smith can figure it out in those 9 games while risking losing Rooney instead of Smith being sent back to Spokane to be an overager and do little to no development.

The whole idea is to see if you can take steps to improve your roster at any chance you can get.  Instead, we are handcuffing ourselves out of fear of risk losing guys like Rooney.  I just don't like the mentality of possible slowing down progress just because you are afraid of moving on from mediocrity.

But we DO know about Palms' body of work, because he's built it and we've all gotten to see it...and even if you didn't witness his play for yourself, you could look up any number of websites and see the numbers.  Smith doesn't HAVE a body of work at the NHL level...huge difference.  Sure, he's been very good in the WHL, enough so that Shero felt comfortable taking him with his team's first round pick.  Nolan Patrick was terrific in the WHL too.  Hasn't translated to the NHL just yet.  For the record I still think Smith will pay off for the Devils.  It's just going to take a little longer than we all hoped.  I don't really think his not making the team as a 19-year-old is a major travesty, I just don't...it would have been great if he had earned it, I still have high hopes for him in the future for sure, but I don't think Shero and Hynes are suddenly a pair of brain-dead buffoons because they decided that, factoring in everything, that Smith's time wasn't in 2019-20. 

Your issue with Shero and Hynes are based on two faulty points:

1) You've decided that Smith's not-good preseason can't or shouldn't be used as part of the evaluation process.  That somehow it should be thrown out and that he should just get the nine games...I guess based on his dominating the WHL?  That definitely was enough to earn him a look with a good chance to make it...but we know how it went with this chance.

2) You're making this about Smith vs. Rooney...that Rooney got his roster spot at Smith's expense.  Tri described exactly what Rooney will be to this team.  If Smith had been that impressive that the Devils would've been convinced to give him at least nine more games, they would've found a way to do it.  It's not that the Devils value Rooney so much that they're afraid to lose him.  It's simply that they didn't think Smith was ready.  Rooney is not holding Smith back from making the team.  Smith did that on his own...maybe because he just isn't NHL-ready.  As we know, not many 19-year-olds are (even if it seems like they could or should be).  If it starts to happen for him at 20, I'm OK with that.

[MadDog2020]

4 hours ago, jagknife said:

For me, my biggest concern as we approach Friday is Hynes saying that Boqvist can slot in with the 3rd and 4th lines, or the insinuation of rolling him to the press box. He deserves a more significant role than that, based solely on what he showed in the preseason alone. Its more the 4th line/healthy scratch potential that bothers me, than the 3rd, because of the actual amount of talent we finally have for our top 6.

I’m already miffed at the idea of Boqvist getting shafted. This sh!t with his usage is gonna drive me insane, I can already tell.

[DevsMan84]

1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

But we DO know about Palms' body of work, because he's built it and we've all gotten to see it...and even if you didn't witness his play for yourself, you could look up any number of websites and see the numbers.  Smith doesn't HAVE a body of work at the NHL level...huge difference.  Sure, he's been very good in the WHL, enough so that Shero felt comfortable taking him with his team's first round pick.  Nolan Patrick was terrific in the WHL too.  Hasn't translated to the NHL just yet.  For the record I still think Smith will pay off for the Devils.  It's just going to take a little longer than we all hoped.  I don't really think his not making the team as a 19-year-old is a major travesty, I just don't...it would have been great if he had earned it, I still have high hopes for him in the future for sure, but I don't think Shero and Hynes are suddenly a pair of brain-dead buffoons because they decided that, factoring in everything, that Smith's time wasn't in 2019-20. 

Your issue with Shero and Hynes are based on two faulty points:

1) You've decided that Smith's not-good preseason can't or shouldn't be used as part of the evaluation process.  That somehow it should be thrown out and that he should just get the nine games...I guess based on his dominating the WHL?  That definitely was enough to earn him a look with a good chance to make it...but we know how it went with this chance.

2) You're making this about Smith vs. Rooney...that Rooney got his roster spot at Smith's expense.  Tri described exactly what Rooney will be to this team.  If Smith had been that impressive that the Devils would've been convinced to give him at least nine more games, they would've found a way to do it.  It's not that the Devils value Rooney so much that they're afraid to lose him.  It's simply that they didn't think Smith was ready.  Rooney is not holding Smith back from making the team.  Smith did that on his own...maybe because he just isn't NHL-ready.  As we know, not many 19-year-olds are (even if it seems like they could or should be).  If it starts to happen for him at 20, I'm OK with that.

1) It should be considered, but why not give him a 9 game look anyways to see if he can figure it out?  Again, we get pissy at people here all the time for basing their opinions on how players are with a small sample size.  Why does Smith not get that sort of treatment?  Now he has to "earn" more games just to get a decent same size?  Huh?

2) Tri's point makes more sense if Rooney was the 13th forward.  He's not as he is the 14th forward.  We now have 14 forwards and 7 defensemen.  Would it be so terrible to carry 13 forwards and 8 defensemen for 9 games instead?  You and others said it yourself, Rooney is unlikely to get claimed.  So what is the harm in this case?  Literally the worse case scenario is that we carry 13 F's and 8D's for 9 games and if Smith is not ready we send him back to Spokane while calling Rooney right back up from Bing.  Is Rooney hanging around practice that important for 9 games?

[DevsMan84]

2 hours ago, MB3 said:

Why do you think his development would stunt playing 25 minutes a night on a championship-favorite Spokane team as their captain? 

I think the coaching staff knows more about the players than we do, and if they thought this would stunt the organizations best prospect’s growth they probably wouldn’t do it.

I guess I don't have the same faith you have in the same coaching staff that is too gutless to bench our captain in games where he has been terrible for the past 2 seasons.

Yeah he will get a lot of ice time in Spokane and will get a leadership role there for sure as Captain.  However, he will literally be a 19 year old leading and beating on 15-16 year olds day in and day out (I am sure mfitz will highlight that last sentence).  All shooting fish in a barrel does is maybe make you feel better, but it doesn't develop your skills further.

[DevsMan84]

4 minutes ago, MB3 said:

Bench him for who? Were you clamoring for more Connor Carrick last year? Could you not wait to see a line with Mueller and Steve Santini?

Everyone right now on our defense is better than Greene than maybe Mueller.

Edited October 2, 2019 by DevsMan84

[mfitz804]

28 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

However, he will literally be a 19 year old leading and beating on 15-16 year olds day in and day out (I am sure mfitz will highlight that last sentence). 

Sounds like my sophomore year of high school. In a sexy-time way. 

[DevsMan84]

6 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Sounds like my sophomore year of high school. In a sexy-time way. 

And less statutory way as well.

[mfitz804]

31 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

And less statutory way as well.

I was 15 and she was 19. If that’s wrong, I don’t wanna be right.

[Nicomo]

3 hours ago, moustic said:

I'm pretty sure the staff make this decision without thinking at guy like Rooney (I don't think any players were even claim by any teams this year)
It was only linked to the fact that Smith wasn't ready (his play shows that... his mental ? I dunno but i have whole confidence in the staff to judge that) 

It's not the end of the word for him and for us.

What's worry me... it's that we don't have an incredible D corps (and he couldn't crack it) 

Yeah, I thought the same last year. It was going to be even harder now with PK. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

1 hour ago, DevsMan84 said:

1) It should be considered, but why not give him a 9 game look anyways to see if he can figure it out?  Again, we get pissy at people here all the time for basing their opinions on how players are with a small sample size.  Why does Smith not get that sort of treatment?  Now he has to "earn" more games just to get a decent same size?  Huh?

2) Tri's point makes more sense if Rooney was the 13th forward.  He's not as he is the 14th forward.  We now have 14 forwards and 7 defensemen.  Would it be so terrible to carry 13 forwards and 8 defensemen for 9 games instead?  You and others said it yourself, Rooney is unlikely to get claimed.  So what is the harm in this case?  Literally the worse case scenario is that we carry 13 F's and 8D's for 9 games and if Smith is not ready we send him back to Spokane while calling Rooney right back up from Bing.  Is Rooney hanging around practice that important for 9 games?

Without going back and forth further, basically it sounds like you wanted Smith to get the nine game regular season look no matter what...regardless of how he performed in preseason, or even if Shero and others decided that maybe he also might not be mentally ready to be an NHLer.  I can’t agree that Smith should’ve just been given those games, regardless of any circumstances.  

[MadDog2020]

2 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Without going back and forth further, basically it sounds like you wanted Smith to get the nine game regular season look no matter what...regardless of how he performed in preseason, or even if Shero and others decided that maybe he also might not be mentally ready to be an NHLer.  I can’t agree that Smith should’ve just been given those games, regardless of any circumstances.  

I agree- he needed to earn those nine games. He didn’t. 

[DevsMan84]

14 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Without going back and forth further, basically it sounds like you wanted Smith to get the nine game regular season look no matter what...regardless of how he performed in preseason, or even if Shero and others decided that maybe he also might not be mentally ready to be an NHLer.  I can’t agree that Smith should’ve just been given those games, regardless of any circumstances.  

I want the Devils to take some chances to at least figure out what they got.  JJ, Zacha, and others have gotten plenty of chances and failed but Smith's margin of error seems to be much smaller than any of them.

At least the Devils coaching staff continues the consistent trend of being inconsistent.

[bostondevil11]

34 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

I want the Devils to take some chances to at least figure out what they got.  JJ, Zacha, and others have gotten plenty of chances and failed but Smith's margin of error seems to be much smaller than any of them.

At least the Devils coaching staff continues the consistent trend of being inconsistent.

Maybe because of JJ and Zacha they are trying not to rush Smith?

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

2 hours ago, DevsMan84 said:

I want the Devils to take some chances to at least figure out what they got.  JJ, Zacha, and others have gotten plenty of chances and failed but Smith's margin of error seems to be much smaller than any of them.

At least the Devils coaching staff continues the consistent trend of being inconsistent.

C'mon, part of the reason JJ and Zacha got chances was due to general lack of talent in the system at the time.  Both players don't get a shot as early as they did (or as much of one) if the Devils simply had worthier players to hold them off or take their jobs.  Zacha being a sixth-overall meant he was likely to get a little more leeway by default.  He has shown flashes here and there too (all the more maddening because he hasn't quite been able to build on them yet...he's been a tease machine for sure). 

We've been over the current D-corp...you've already got four players who can provide offense:  Subban, Butcher, Vatanen, and Severson.  Three of the four have five years experience or more.  Then there's the non-offensive guys:  Greene, Carrick, and Mueller.  No, that threesome doesn't thrill anyone at the moment, but Greene will be gone after this season, and I'm sure that if Mueller and/or Carrick are not getting it done, that Shero will try to find upgrades to do what these guys are supposed to do. 

If Smith had shown enough to get the nine-game look, and then during that nine-game look had shown enough to stick with the big team, you can be sure that Shero would've done something to try to make room for him...wouldn't have surprised me at all that in such an alternative timeline, he moves UFA-to-be Vatanen to open up a spot for Smith. 

This really boils down to one thing:  you're ticked that Smith didn't get a shot because you already had him making the team out of preseason, and no matter how someone pitches it to you that it may not have been in either Smith's or the Devils' best interests for Smith's NHL career to start in 2019-20 as a 19-year-old, you're not having it.  You're even contradicting yourself a little...you say that Smith's preseason can be factored in, but when that leads to what you consider to be the wrong outcome, you basically say to give him a mulligan and just give him the nine games anyway. 

Anyway, the guess here is that Vatanen won't be re-signed this offseason, and a spot will definitely be more readily available for Smith next season.  I do think this move is going to work out better for everyone in the long run.  I just don't think it was nearly as crucial as you do for it to happen for Smith in 2019-20...sure, it would've been great, but like others have said, I don't think it's anywhere near the end of the world for him, nor the Devils.   

Edited October 3, 2019 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Crisis]

JJ and Zacha were rushed because the team needed them right away.  Larsson as well.  I mean, Larsson is a great example.  He was a liability, got benched a lot because of it, and it stunted his development.

We don't have a spot for Smith to fill now, it's actually quite the opposite.  So why risk it?

EDIT: Yeah what he said ^

Edited October 3, 2019 by Crisis