GDT: Devils at Flames 9:00 PM

[Neb00rs]

Such a poor read by Butcher to think he can cut this pass off - look at him, that's Johnny Gaudreau and he's skating cross-ice at him.

[NJDevs4978]

1 hour ago, mfitz804 said:

Could’ve been worse. I’m not sure how, but it could’ve been. 

Not winning the lottery for a second time this offseason, that's how.  Or having Adam Gase as your coach.  As bad as Hynes is, he might as well be a Mensa member compared to Gase.

Edited November 8, 2019 by NJDevs4978

[mfitz804]

6 hours ago, NJDevs4978 said:

Not winning the lottery for a second time this offseason, that's how.  Or having Adam Gase as your coach.  As bad as Hynes is, he might as well be a Mensa member compared to Gase.

That’s fair. 

[Guadana]

Thanks God or universe we have free legal official records of full games. I can’t say I regret that I didn’t watch it online.

team doesn’t ready for competitions with big clubs. And Gusev or Hughes May be the worst in the world in defense, but they were who scored. When you date with girls you don’t count good conversations or flirt. I talked with 10 girls on this week, I flirted 5 times - my expectation chances in my stats. You score or don’t. Other than that is bubbling.

[NJDfan1711]

8 hours ago, Neb00rs said:

Such a poor read by Butcher to think he can cut this pass off - look at him, that's Johnny Gaudreau and he's skating cross-ice at him.

I don't know how that emphasizes Butcher being responsible for that goal.  He tried to cut off the pass most likely because he saw how flat-footed and poorly positioned Tennyson was and how he knew he was about to get burned, which he did.  Even if Butcher doesn't cut along the red line there and instead skates backwards, his man is still the passer (I can't make out his number or who that is, but his guy wouldn't be Gaudreau).  In this instance, Butcher is on the left side and would be on the passer as he skates down the rink into our zone, and Tennyson's job would still be to pick up Gaudreau on the right side, so nothing changes.  The issue, and the only issue, with this play is that Tennyson didn't understand/respect Gaudreau's speed and simply got caught cheating too far up into the neutral zone.  It's a product of not having enough knowledge/experience to know what's about to happen, and also just perhaps not enough skill (not being fast enough to keep up), but this has absolutely nothing to do with Butcher.  Trying to put part of this goal on Tennyson's defensive partner is not just unfair, it's misguided.

[NJDfan1711]

[NJDfan1711]

The two arrows on the right just merely indicate who both guys were responsible for picking up (I thought that much was obvious), the back two arrows of show, ideally, where they should have headed (Tennyson still going in the direction he actually went, while Butcher going straight back down the ice like you mentioned, rather than trying to cut off the pass to Gaudreau), but the real issue is the green line I drew, which is where Tennyson should have been playing in order to avoid an on-rushing Gaudreau, one of the fastest guys in the league.  It really comes down to two things like I mentioned - either A) Tennyson didn't recognize who was coming at him and mis-judged where he was in order to not give up the boards and get blown by like a McLaren on a quarter-mile stretch, or B ) he understood where he was and mis-judged his own ability and thought he could keep up with him (goes back to my point about just not being skilled enough) …..but no matter the case, that goal is happening regardless of whether or not Butcher skates backwards or tries to go for the pass, and the reason is because of Tennyson's actions, and his actions alone.

[Devilsfan118]

9 hours ago, Neb00rs said:

Such a poor read by Butcher to think he can cut this pass off - look at him, that's Johnny Gaudreau and he's skating cross-ice at him.

I think Butcher was just simply trying to do too much, knowing his D partner wasn't up to the task.

Edit: @NJDfan1711 did a hell of a job explaining it - great job

Edited November 8, 2019 by Devilsfan118

[NJDevils1214]

1 hour ago, NJDfan1711 said:

 

 

40 minutes ago, Devilsfan118 said:

I think Butcher was just simply trying to do too much, knowing his D partner wasn't up to the task.

Edit: @NJDfan1711 did a hell of a job explaining it - great job

Agreed on all points.

Tennyson was not in a position to defend on that play from the start. By the moment that picture was even taken he should have already read the play and turned himself around in anticipation of the pass. Anyone here who has watched hockey even a little bit could have seen that play, and the scoring chance, coming a mile away. They're almost even on the ice, but Gaudreau has all the speed/momentum and Tennyson is still skating backwards like he'll be able to cut him off. That is the terrible read, not Butcher.

Why the hell was that pairing even on the ice against that line anyway?

[EdgeControl]

not glad I DVR'd this game after the first period.. now Im pissed all morning.  got beat bad. this could have been another 9 goals against game.  flames came in waves of speed through the zones.  hall is hall, you take the good to great with the 4 bad turnovers each game.. the rest of the team was just puck chasing

boys got their butts kicked. need a quick 2 pt game fast

[Neb00rs]

2 hours ago, NJDfan1711 said:

The two arrows on the right just merely indicate who both guys were responsible for picking up (I thought that much was obvious), the back two arrows of show, ideally, where they should have headed (Tennyson still going in the direction he actually went, while Butcher going straight back down the ice like you mentioned, rather than trying to cut off the pass to Gaudreau), but the real issue is the green line I drew, which is where Tennyson should have been playing in order to avoid an on-rushing Gaudreau, one of the fastest guys in the league.  It really comes down to two things like I mentioned - either A) Tennyson didn't recognize who was coming at him and mis-judged where he was in order to not give up the boards and get blown by like a McLaren on a quarter-mile stretch, or B ) he understood where he was and mis-judged his own ability and thought he could keep up with him (goes back to my point about just not being skilled enough) …..but no matter the case, that goal is happening regardless of whether or not Butcher skates backwards or tries to go for the pass, and the reason is because of Tennyson's actions, and his actions alone.

There's a lot of jibber-jabber going on here but ultimately I'm not really clear on your point. Tennyson was beat as soon as the play left the offensive zone. We know he sucks. We know his lack of ability caused that goal. I'm not here to waste my time assigning percentages of fault. But you seem to understand where Butcher should have gone and why that's a better choice. You're right, the goal still might have happened because Gaudreau is so fast, but that was our best chance. Butcher did try to do too much - which again, was my point, and he did so in a very stupid, physics inept way - this is the NHL, he knows who is coming down the line, he know Tennyson is screwed, and he made somewhat of mystifying decision in the moment. 

Edited November 8, 2019 by Neb00rs

[HellOnICE]

It's tough with 7. Time for 25 to get back in. See if you can try out someone else, Colton White, Waiver pick up, someone. 

[NJDfan1711]

1 hour ago, Neb00rs said:

There's a lot of jibber-jabber going on here but ultimately I'm not really clear on your point. Tennyson was beat as soon as the play left the offensive zone. We know he sucks. We know his lack of ability caused that goal. I'm not here to waste my time assigning percentages of fault. But you seem to understand where Butcher should have gone and why that's a better choice. You're right, the goal still might have happened because Gaudreau is so fast, but that was our best chance. Butcher did try to do too much - which again, was my point, and he did so in a very stupid, physics inept way - this is the NHL, he knows who is coming down the line, he know Tennyson is screwed, and he made somewhat of mystifying decision in the moment. 

Not really sure what you mean by jibber jabber since I tried to be rather direct with my observations and view on the play, so I'm also not sure how the point isn't clear.  My point was that I disagree on placing blame for the goal on Butcher, be it all or partial, which you did initially, but are now saying that you're not going to dish out percentages.  Butcher may have tried to do too much, but that's irrelevant.  If he didn't try to do too much (i.e. intercept the pass going to Gaudreau), the end result is the same.  Why?  Because of the way Tennyson was positioned (or, less likely, that Tennyson overestimated his own ability and thought he could keep up with him).  If Butcher had just turned around and went straight back to the net he's still not catching Gaudreau.  He's too far away from him, and that's not his fault - that wasn't his man. Butcher has his own responsibility, which was to cover the passer in that situation, and he was lined up appropriately as they were backing through the neutral zone.  

[Neb00rs]

30 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

Not really sure what you mean by jibber jabber since I tried to be rather direct with my observations and view on the play, so I'm also not sure how the point isn't clear.  My point was that I disagree on placing blame for the goal on Butcher, be it all or partial, which you did initially, but are now saying that you're not going to dish out percentages.  Butcher may have tried to do too much, but that's irrelevant.  If he didn't try to do too much (i.e. intercept the pass going to Gaudreau), the end result is the same.  Why?  Because of the way Tennyson was positioned (or, less likely, that Tennyson overestimated his own ability and thought he could keep up with him).  If Butcher had just turned around and went straight back to the net he's still not catching Gaudreau.  He's too far away from him, and that's not his fault - that wasn't his man. Butcher has his own responsibility, which was to cover the passer in that situation, and he was lined up appropriately as they were backing through the neutral zone.  

It's jibber-jabber because I don't really understand what you're contention is - Though now I suppose it's "Butcher did nothing wrong, except he did something wrong by not making the right decision." I'm not vindicating Tennyson, nor did I at first. The only point is that Butcher could have made a better play where instead he made somewhat of a stupid decision. The reason Tennyson was out of position by the way, was that he wasn't skating directly south - he was skating away from Gaudreau at first, because he was trying to play a potential 2-on-1. There's a lack of awareness there in not seeing Butcher coming in - true. In any case, the green line in which you mark Tennyson's better position, is irrelevant - he was beat long before that, as the puck was coming out of the o-zone. Here:

 

I'm not sure why Tennyson didn't let Butcher pick up Monahan, but Tennyson isn't good we know that. Butcher is the one who could have made a better decision - and had a much better chance to cut off the play in the defensive zone - already having forward speed skating south from the neutral zone.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Neb00rs

[NJDfan1711]

1 hour ago, Neb00rs said:

It's jibber-jabber because I don't really understand what you're contention is - Though now I suppose it's "Butcher did nothing wrong, except he did something wrong by not making the right decision." I'm not vindicating Tennyson, nor did I at first. The only point is that Butcher could have made a better play where instead he made somewhat of a stupid decision. The reason Tennyson was out of position by the way, was that he wasn't skating directly south - he was skating away from Gaudreau at first, because he was trying to play a potential 2-on-1. There's a lack of awareness there in not seeing Butcher coming in - true. In any case, the green line in which you mark Tennyson's better position, is irrelevant - he was beat long before that, as the puck was coming out of the o-zone. Here:

 

I'm not sure why Tennyson didn't let Butcher pick up Monahan, but Tennyson isn't good we know that. Butcher is the one who could have made a better decision - and had a much better chance to cut off the play in the defensive zone - already having forward speed skating south from the neutral zone.

Once again my contention is this notion that Butcher could have made a better play.  What better play was available in either of the images you provided?  Even in this second image, he's sideways and basically the same distance from both Monahan and Gaudreau as he is in the second previous image a few frames later.  If he attacks Monahan straight up, he runs the risk of said 2-on-1 developing and leaving Tennyson hanging out to dry more than he already is.  So aside from B-lining it towards Blackwood and still not being able to catch Gaudreau as he eventually speeds by Tennyson (Butcher isn't as fast as Gaudreau, and you can see even in this 2nd image they're essentially lined up evenly, so he would lose that footrace), his only other option is the one that he actually ended up taking, which was to try and stop the pass from Monahan to Gaudreau.  Sure you could argue that it was futile, and perhaps even a bit desperate, but given the circumstances it was basically the lesser of 3 evils.

[devlman]

Butcher should have seen Gaudreau had the step on Tennyson and immediately headed south to provide cover. Making a B line towards Gaudreau does nothing.
 

[Neb00rs]

51 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

Once again my contention is this notion that Butcher could have made a better play.  What better play was available in either of the images you provided?  Even in this second image, he's sideways and basically the same distance from both Monahan and Gaudreau as he is in the second previous image a few frames later.  If he attacks Monahan straight up, he runs the risk of said 2-on-1 developing and leaving Tennyson hanging out to dry more than he already is.  So aside from B-lining it towards Blackwood and still not being able to catch Gaudreau as he eventually speeds by Tennyson (Butcher isn't as fast as Gaudreau, and you can see even in this 2nd image they're essentially lined up evenly, so he would lose that footrace), his only other option is the one that he actually ended up taking, which was to try and stop the pass from Monahan to Gaudreau.  Sure you could argue that it was futile, and perhaps even a bit desperate, but given the circumstances it was basically the lesser of 3 evils.

First you point how how Butcher should have headed back towards Blackwood and then you deny he should have done so. You should have stuck with your initial stance.  I shouldn't have to explain how a straight line is an advantage over a curved line over the same distance - Gaudreau is very fast but it was Butcher's best play. There's not much to debate - it's one play, it's over, I'm not calling for Butcher to be benched.

[mfitz804]

43 minutes ago, Neb00rs said:

There's not much to debate - it's one play, it's over

All evidence seems to be to the contrary. 

[NJDfan1711]

7 hours ago, Neb00rs said:

First you point how how Butcher should have headed back towards Blackwood and then you deny he should have done so. You should have stuck with your initial stance.  I shouldn't have to explain how a straight line is an advantage over a curved line over the same distance - Gaudreau is very fast but it was Butcher's best play. There's not much to debate - it's one play, it's over, I'm not calling for Butcher to be benched.

Damn, you're struggling here. I've not changed my stance on the play, and I've thought and agreed that Butcher could (not should) have just gone straight back to the net.  Hindsight being 20/20 shows us that him trying to pick off the pass to Gaudreau didn't work, which is natural because it was a pretty low percentage chance of him intercepting it. But once again the point, which I have no idea how or why you can't seem to understand this, is that had he done that, it wouldn't have changed anything, so the fact that he chose to do something else isn't at all egregious to the point where it warrants you vilifying him for it.  It's interesting that you went so far to include an image earlier, yet you claim to be not calling for his benching.  All of a sudden it's not a big deal in your eyes, but you spent several posts trying to say otherwise.

Anyway, you're right - agree to disagree, and it's not important anymore.