2020 NHL Draft Thread: Devils: #7 Holtz!

[Nicomo]

13 minutes ago, Satans Hockey said:

Love how the NHL is promoting everything as "The Stanley Cup begins August 1st" though they aren't counting this as the playoffs. fvck off. It's absolutely bullsh!t one of these teams is going to get the #1 overall pick.

You just know it’ll be the Rags. As if 2020 couldn’t get any worse...

[MadDog2020]

30 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

You just know it’ll be the Rags. As if 2020 couldn’t get any worse...

 

[Jerzey]

Now we have to hope the rags beat Carolina in the play ins? I guess it’s better than them having a chance to win 1st OA. I don’t think they’ll go very far in the playoffs  but you never know. Who knows how well any of the playoff teams will be playing at this point. 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Jerzey

[SterioDesign]

57 minutes ago, Jerzey said:

Now we have to hope the rags beat Carolina in the play ins? I guess it’s better than them having a chance to win 1st OA. I don’t think they’ll go very far in the playoffs  but you never know. Who knows how well any of the playoff teams will be playing at this point. 

yeah that'd be ideal that they win and lose in the playoffs. get a worst pick technically and dont win the cup

[Jerzey]

35 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

yeah that'd be ideal that they win and lose in the playoffs. get a worst pick technically and dont win the cup

I think they own one of Carolina’s first round picks too but fortunately it will be the later of the two picks Carolina has (their own and Toronto’s). I got scared for a second that even if they beat Carolina then they’d just have their pick at 1st OA. 
 

https://www.nhl.com/rangers/news/rangers-acquire-a-first-round-pick-in-2020-nhl-entry-draft/c-315487218

The first-round pick the Rangers receive from Carolina will be the later selection of the two first-round picks that the Hurricanes own (either Carolina's own first-round pick or Toronto's first-round pick).

[Guadana]

1 hour ago, Jerzey said:

I think they own one of Carolina’s first round picks too but fortunately it will be the later of the two picks Carolina has (their own and Toronto’s). I got scared for a second that even if they beat Carolina then they’d just have their pick at 1st OA. 
 

https://www.nhl.com/rangers/news/rangers-acquire-a-first-round-pick-in-2020-nhl-entry-draft/c-315487218

The first-round pick the Rangers receive from Carolina will be the later selection of the two first-round picks that the Hurricanes own (either Carolina's own first-round pick or Toronto's first-round pick).

Yap. If carolina`s or toronto`s pick wil be winning one - carolina will be the owners. Anyway better ending for us if any team from the west will win the lottery.

[NJDevils1214]

Not sure if any of you guys keep up with the team's official podcast, but they recently had Craig Button on to talk about the draft and also Jamie Langenbrunner the episode before that.

EDIT: Listened to the Langenbrunner podcast and boy did the Devils do wrong by him. Pretty lame.

Edited August 19, 2020 by NJDevils1214

[SterioDesign]

Yeah how Lou handled that whole situation with Jamie, taking him out of the lineup, leaving him, the coache and the players completely in the dark and not communicating exactly what was happening with anyone and letting it drag... was certainly one of the multiple way Lou paved the way for Jamie's best friend to leave. 

[Nicomo]

55 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Yeah how Lou handled that whole situation with Jamie, taking him out of the lineup, leaving him, the coache and the players completely in the dark and not communicating exactly what was happening with anyone and letting it drag... was certainly one of the multiple way Lou paved the way for Jamie's best friend to leave. 

Who was his best friend?

[nessus]

I like this guy (#19, right hand shot) for one of the Devils' later first round picks. He has got a great shot, amazing hands, and underrated playmaking ability. If you check out this video, you can see the intensity level that he plays with. Strong defensively, good on the PK, and impressive vision. It seems like there isn't much to dislike about his game. He's a 6'0 right winger, which incidentally fills a major organizational need. 

 

[mfitz804]

14 minutes ago, nessus said:

He's a hockey player, which incidentally fills a major organizational need. 

 

Fixed. 

[MadDog2020]

43 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

Who was his best friend?

Parise.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

17 hours ago, NJDevils1214 said:

Not sure if any of you guys keep up with the team's official podcast, but they recently had Craig Button on to talk about the draft and also Jamie Langenbrunner the episode before that.

EDIT: Listened to the Langenbrunner podcast and boy did the Devils do wrong by him. Pretty lame.

I just listened to the whole Langs podcast too, this morning.

I always liked Langs a lot as a player, and as far as pure contract value goes, his 5-year, $2.8 per season deal that he signed to stick around was an absolute steal of a bargain...I remember being quite surprised at the time that he was signed to such a cost-effective deal (of course, it turns out that he took less to get his no-trade clause...more on that in a bit).  All he did during the course of those five years was put up four out of his five top point totals in the NHL (three times cracking 60+), and of course managed to be an important part of the Devils' top line at one point.  His overall Devils body of work was quite good, and he's one of those guys that I look at and say "He got the absolute most of his ability while he was here."

It's always interesting to hear a player's story right from the player's mouth, the ups and downs, the good memories and bad...sometimes, hearing those stories can re-shape your opinion of a player (especially as a person).  I gained a whole new respect for Jamie after hearing the podcast.  Guy really comes off as incredibly down-to-earth and just an all-around good dude, and he was pretty open and honest throughout the whole interview.  The kind of guy you'd love to have as a neighbor.

He admitted that the Olympic break took something out of him in 2010, and the numbers seem to back that up...after putting up 56 points in 65 GP (including three in three games just after the break), his offensive numbers fell off...just 6 points in 21 GP after (includes five playoff games), which apparently raised the ire of Jacques Lemaire.  Where I give Langs a TON of credit is, based on the way he was treated at the end of his Devils career, I could understand him harboring some real bitterness towards the organization for life, if he wanted to go that route.  Regardless of who the GM is, I will ALWAYS side with a player who chooses to invoke his no-trade clause...it's never the player's fault when a GM is willing to offer a no-trade, and no GM should ever automatically expect to be accommodated if a player who's been given that right decides to exercise it.  As much as I've supported Lou overall, it's fair to say at times that he came off as careless and even borderline reckless when it came to how he handled his cap.  I could understand a guy like Jamie at the time thinking "Wait a minute, all I've done is be better than you ever could have expected me to be, I've been a great soldier and I was a huge reason my team won a Cup in 2003, I left money on the table so you'd give me the no-trade, and you spring 'How about you waive your NTC and bail me out?' in SEPTEMBER on me?!  fvck you!"  I could definitely understand his anger at that time, and how it would've affected his play in 2010-11...a situation not made any better by the team playing horrible hockey, and the fact that a coach he didn't get along with in Lemaire was now back in the fold.  From that point on 2010-11 was irreparably damaged, as far as Langs remaining a Devil went.  

What impressed me most about Jamie during that interview is that he clearly found a way to make peace with the way things ended, even going so far as to say that there's things he definitely could've handled better...even if that's true in some ways, if Jamie had come on and ripped Lou and the Devils organization for the way things ended, I could've easily understood that take as well.  The fact that he seems to be willing to use an "older and wiser" perspective in making peace with the way everything went down, and to more accentuate the good of his time here is admirable.  Not everyone could do that.

As for Lou and Jacques...is it really breaking news anymore that both of them (especially Lou in some cases), despite all of their successes, could be prickly unlikable a$$holes at times?  No one ever said that they were warm and fuzzy...or had great bedside manners...or never made mistakes. 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[NJDevils1214]

1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I just listened to the whole Langs podcast too, this morning. 

What stood out to me, if I'm remembering correctly, was they tried to take the C from him in the middle of a game in front of everyone. He said Colin White blew a gasket. That's so fvcked up. 

[MadDog2020]

10 minutes ago, NJDevils1214 said:

What stood out to me, if I'm remembering correctly, was they tried to take the C from him in the middle of a game in front of everyone. He said Colin White blew a gasket. That's so fvcked up. 

Wow.... that is big-time fvcked up. I have to listen, but reading what’s been written here, Lou definitely owed Jamie more than that sh!t. We couldn’t figure out why Jamie had become so unhappy, (from after the Olympics to the time he was traded, he just wasn’t the same guy), and I’m guessing this was a big part of the reason why. He is one of my all-time favorite Devils though, and I’m glad he’s made his peace with the organization. Hope to see him in three years for the 2003 20-year reunion. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

45 minutes ago, NJDevils1214 said:

What stood out to me, if I'm remembering correctly, was they tried to take the C from him in the middle of a game in front of everyone. He said Colin White blew a gasket. That's so fvcked up. 

I gotta listen to that part again...I was speed-walking and listening on my phone outdoors (I do this every morning), and every now and then a car would drive by and make it harder to hear.  I definitely remember the talk about taking away his "C" and Colin White losing his sh!t over that.  I just forget exactly WHEN they wanted to do it.  

But regardless of the details regarding certain events, Langs' case is one where I can definitely see why he felt slighted.  First four years of his deal he averaged 22 G and 39 A per 82 GP and more than did his job.  From all accounts, he was a guy who gave his all (and considering that I would call him a bit of an overachiever, I can't see how he DIDN'T give his all).  Though he made it a point to say that in looking back he felt like he needed to better understand not to take things personally as far as business decisions go...I can still understand why he was stung.  

He did fade rather quickly after being dealt...odd in that the fall-off came immediately after his two most productive NHL seasons, as far as points go (130 points combined in 2008-09 and 2009-10).  I just wish the Devils as an organization had handled his situation a lot better than they did.  Jamie deserved that much.  

28 minutes ago, MadDog2020 said:

Wow.... that is big-time fvcked up. I have to listen, but reading what’s been written here, Lou definitely owed Jamie more than that sh!t. We couldn’t figure out why Jamie had become so unhappy, (from after the Olympics to the time he was traded, he just wasn’t the same guy), and I’m guessing this was a big part of the reason why. He is one of my all-time favorite Devils though, and I’m glad he’s made his peace with the organization. Hope to see him in three years for the 2003 20-year reunion. 

Yeah, I always wondered about the bolded myself...he went from being a guy who seemed to be a perfect Devil (that embodied everything about the team's philosophy at the time) to a guy who was pretty unhappy and disillusioned.  The interview really shed some light on that...and though there's clearly emotions involved on Langs' side, he stated everything in a fair, matter-of-fact way that's not really out to get anyone or make anyone look bad...no agendas, other than to give his honest take of what happened, what he felt at the time, and how he looks back on it all now.

One thing I definitely sense about Lou is that for all of the positives that come with him, man, on those occasions when he really wanted to be a vindictive d!ck, he could really go all the way with it...above and beyond.    

Edited August 19, 2020 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[NJDevils1214]

14 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I gotta listen to that part again...I was speed-walking and listening on my phone outdoors (I do this every morning), and every now and then a car would drive by and make it harder to hear.  I definitely remember the talk about taking away his "C" and Colin White losing his sh!t over that.  I just forget exactly WHEN they wanted to do it.  

But regardless of the details regarding certain events, Langs' case is one where I can definitely see why he felt slighted.  First four years of his deal he averaged 22 G and 39 A per 82 GP and more than did his job.  From all accounts, he was a guy who gave his all (and considering that I would call him a bit of an overachiever, I can't see how he DIDN'T give his all).  Though he made it a point to say that in looking back he felt like he needed to better understand not to take things personally as far as business decisions go...I can still understand why he was stung.  

He did fade rather quickly after being dealt...odd in that the fall-off came immediately after his two most productive NHL seasons, as far as points go (130 points combined in 2008-09 and 2009-10).  I just wish the Devils as an organization had handled his situation a lot better than he did.  Jamie deserved that much.  

Yeah, I always wondered about the bolded myself...he went from being a guy who seemed to be a perfect Devil (that embodied everything about the team's philosophy at the time) to a guy who was pretty unhappy and disillusioned.  The interview really shed some light on that...and though there's clearly emotions involved on Langs' side, he stated everything in a fair, matter-of-fact way that's not really out to get anyone or make anyone look bad...no agendas, other than to give his honest take of what happened, what he felt at the time, and how he looks back on it all now.

One thing I definitely sense about Lou is that for all of the positives that come with him, man, on those occasions when he really wanted to be a vindictive d!ck, he could really go all the way with it...above and beyond.    

I just went and listened again to make sure sure I heard it correctly before I make you guys go nuts over nothing. 

He says they took him to a 1 game trip to Carolina and he was still benched by Jaques and they tried to take the C from him during that game and Colin White lost it said this isnt the way to do it. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

1 minute ago, NJDevils1214 said:

I just went and listened again to make sure sure I heard it correctly before I make you guys go nuts over nothing. 

He says they took him to a 1 game trip to Carolina and he was still benched by Jaques and they tried to take the C from him during that game and Colin White lost it said this isnt the way to do it. 

Yeah that's what I thought...that he wasn't actually playing in that game...must've been this one, as he played in every other game that season:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/boxscores/201004030CAR.html

That game marks the beginning of the end, more than likely.  

 

[Devilsfan118]

Just to echo what some of you have said.. boy did my thoughts/opinions on Jamie change after that podcast.  

Probably too harsh on my part, but I thought of him as a total whiner and quitter towards the end of his time with the Devils.  I had no idea so much.. frankly, bullsh!t was going on behind the scenes.  Lou did him dirty.. I don't think there are many other ways to phrase it.  

Brendan Morrison was on the most recent 31 Thoughts podcast - another great listen.  Talked a bit about his time with the Devils before he held out and was eventually part of the Mogilny trade.  Keeping in mind this is the player's side of the story.. he said that Lou more or less told him "we'll take care of you, don't worry" and then later came by and said "Here's your qualifying offer, take it or leave it.  It's all we're going to give you because it's all we have to (read: are obligated) give you".  Which eventually lead to Morrison requesting the trade.

Lou was brutal.  There's no denying he's good at what he does and really knows how to win but.. Jesus some of the stuff he did to these guys is rough.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Devilsfan118

[Nicomo]

Good on Colin White for having his captain’s back, too. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

14 minutes ago, Nicomo said:

Good on Colin White for having his captain’s back, too. 

Between John MacLean being a horrible coach, the team being in absolute cap hell, Jamie being miserable and knowing that his Devils days were numbered, Kovy getting that mega-deal and doing next to nothing to start the season (who could forget that shootout whiff...I was there for that one), and Zach not being right to start and then missing most of the season...not hard to see why 2010-11 started with such a pronounced thud.  If Jamie was as likable in the locker room as he came off during the interview, hard to think some of his teammates who had played with him for a while and knew what was going on weren't feeling a bit cranky themselves at the time.  

15 minutes ago, Devilsfan118 said:

Just to echo what some of you have said.. boy did my thoughts/opinions on Jamie change after that podcast.  

Probably too harsh on my part, but I thought of him as a total whiner and quitter towards the end of his time with the Devils.  I had no idea so much.. frankly, bullsh!t was going on behind the scenes.  Lou did him dirty.. I don't think there are many other ways to phrase it.  

Brendan Morrison was on the most recent 31 Thoughts podcast - another great listen.  Talked a bit about his time with the Devils before he held out and was eventually part of the Mogilny trade.  Keeping in mind this is the player's side of the story.. he said that Lou more or less told him "we'll take care of you, don't worry" and then later came by and said "Here's your qualifying offer, take it or leave it.  It's all we're going to give you because it's all we have to (read: are obligated) give you".  Which eventually lead to Morrison requesting the trade.

Lou was brutal.  There's no denying he's good at what he does and really knows how to win but.. Jesus some of the stuff he did to these guys is rough.

I do remember thinking something kinda similar once he was dealt (less harsh, but in that vein)...and what a shame it was at the time, because I had always liked him.  Hearing his side of things really filled in a lot of blanks.  

Sadly it turned out for the best, for both parties...the team went on its second-half tear shortly after, and Langs got to get a fresh start, for a franchise he was already familiar with...and as we know, just 113 games after he'd been dealt from the Devils, his NHL days were done.  Just sucks in that it felt like things should've ended on much less sour note.  Guy was really a fine fine Devil. 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[sundstrom]

55 minutes ago, NJDevils1214 said:

I just went and listened again to make sure sure I heard it correctly before I make you guys go nuts over nothing. 

He says they took him to a 1 game trip to Carolina and he was still benched by Jaques and they tried to take the C from him during that game and Colin White lost it said this isnt the way to do it. 

i remember this at the time - it was theoretically for ONE game that they wanted to put the C on White (similar to how they used to do in Pre-Season Games when the Captain wasn't playing - this went back to when Stevens was the captain). The Devils supposedly didn't believe in 3 A's. If the Captain was out for a game, they would give someone else the C for one game. At the time, the background wasn't known so I remember thinking that Langs was getting bent out of shape over nothing. Now, with hindsight and Lang's testimony, the tune is quite different.

And even though it was always kinda known, stories like this show how much of a prick Lou could be for no good reason. A true old school Patton-wannabe who would be your best champion and then turn on a dime and destroy you, more often for reasons out of your control.

[SterioDesign]

Obviously nobody wants to hear more of my opinion on Lou but since people are turning the corner about some of that stuff.

Thats exactly what i've been saying. For the longest time Lou had a strong team to backup his stiff and hardball ways.. not even trying to re-sign his upcoming UFAs cause he knew they'd likely just stay or be loyal, lowballing top players, being an a$$hole etc . It's like anything, if you're the boss of a good company with good benefits, good pay, and that employees love to work there... etc etc... you have some leverage and then you can play hardball and still keep some employees cause there's not as much chance they could get something better somewhere else and they have a reason to stay. Just like Steve Jobs with Apple, he was an a$$hole, but he ran an amazing company so people wanted to work there.

But when the devils started to nose dive and suck. It was truly a sinking ship and he never adjusted to that. If you're not happy in a situation, you always see the grass being greener somewhere else and with the way Lou played his cards... i totally understand that we lost so many top players. He was just too damn stubborn to adjust and he'd stick to do things his way even-though it made no sense at all.

I'm still incredibly upset that he 100% let Elias walk. ELIAS!!! Thank god Elias truly wanted to stay.

There's a parallel to make with Lou and Marchand. Incredibly talented player who doesn't need to do the crap he's doing, but he's doing it, just because. And it's the same thing, Marchand is getting away with it a lot now cause he's producing. But when the time come that he's not producing, his team won't want to deal with just his antics. 

Edited August 19, 2020 by SterioDesign

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

Without getting into the usual debate, what I think you often miss SD is that people have been long aware that Lou wasn't always the fairest or nicest GM in the world, and could be an outright d!ck at times.  Just because some people have defended him in the past (and still might) doesn't mean they inhale Kool-Aid through a funnel and assume Lou couldn't possibly have ever made any mistakes...but being a GM is never a 100% success rate kind of business, and in spite of everything, his teams enjoyed success for a long long time.  We've already discussed to death what caused the Devils decline and eventual bottom-out of his era...some of it was inevitable, some of it was out of his control, but some of it was definitely self-inflicted.  No one disputes that he shoulders his own chunk of the blame.

But the reason I'm posting is to respond to your Steve Jobs point, and to piggyback off it...in some ways, I'd say that Lou reminds me a bit of former Mets manager Bobby Valentine, and famous director James Cameron.  They're all very smart in their own ways, and at times guilty of thinking they're smarter than everyone else.  Part of their success is rooted in having "disciples" who will follow them to the ends of the Earth, no matter what...Bobby V had players that he believed heavily in that rewarded him for that loyalty (that others didn't see having the same value), and Cameron had his share of actors that "got" him and could handle how incredibly tough he could be on them.  Lou had those guys too (Lemaire and Robinson as coaches, not to mention several players).  

Of course, what can start to happen with guys like that is as their disciples age and are moving on to other ventures or have simply had enough (think Brady with Belichick), there's a bit of "what now?"  It's similar to running low on prospects...suddenly replacements aren't necessarily there from outside that will be so willing to deal with your more prickly character traits, or have the thicker skin required to deal with you.  I don't think it was any coincidence that Lou had to go to the "former Devils" well a bit too often as the years went on...or had to keep guys that other teams might have moved on from earlier (even if there would have been an outcry initially).  

The big question is would a kinder, gentler, softer Lou had a better chance of sticking around here, had he been willing to change?  Some guys have definitely managed to pull that off, to great success...see Tom Coughlin with the Giants.  Even though I'm no Terry Collins fan, he went from being a guy no one could stand in his first two major-league managerial stints to a guy who was very much beloved by his third team (the Mets).  It really did feel like things ran their course here with Lou though, and it was simply time for a change, after so many years.  I don't follow the Islanders closely enough to know if he's mellowed noticeably, or drastically changed in other ways.  Could be that HE needed a fresh start as much as the Devils did, really.

And the worst thing these guys can do is turn on their disciples for what seem like odd reasons.  I’m sure Langs was probably flat-out hurt by the way he was treated at the end, after feeling like he had fully bought into Lou’s way and had been every bit the good soldier.  Like sundstrom alluded to, it feels like sometimes these guys will fvck with certain people for reasons that make sense only to them.  

Edited August 19, 2020 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[NJDevils1214]

2 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

And the worst thing these guys can do is turn on their disciples for what seem like odd reasons.  I’m sure Langs was probably flat-out hurt by the way he was treated at the end, after feeling like he had fully bought into Lou’s way and had been every bit the good soldier.  Like sundstrom alluded to, it feels like sometimes these guys will fvck with certain people for reasons that make sense only to them.  

To be fair, Lou asked Jamie to waive his NTC and Jamie says he said no and was kind of miffed about it because they waited until September to ask him when his kids just went back to school and everything. Nothing else is really said about how Lou or the Org felt about it.

The whole debacle with the captain thing and being benched, on the surface, appears to be the rift between Jamie and Lemaire and doesn't involve Lou...but this is just surface level. Who knows for sure. Lemaire and Lou always were good ole boys.