Race To The Bottom II - 2018-19 Edition

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

3 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

The Panthers won their final 6 games in a row, but didn't Philly lose a couple?  I know we were jockeying with them as well for that final spot, and I think by them losing a game or two is what essentially helped us get in, since Florida was really the ones playing out of their minds (we played well too as you mentioned, but they actually took it up a notch).

Was their final five that they won:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/FLA/2018_games.html

A 15-3-1 run got them into contention, but my point at the time was that it's just too hard to keep winning at that kind of pace as the season winds down...some were acting like Florida was never going to slow up.  And ultimately the Panthers couldn't keep up that insane pace, and simply didn't have enough margin for error.  Like I posted, that 5-5-1 cooldown was enough to derail their potential Cinderella run, even when they went on that streak at they very end.

It was really Florida stumbling just enough that allowed the Devils to not have to worry as much about Columbus and Philly.  Columbus actually slowed up a little at the end too...that's what allowed the Devils to have a shot to pass them in the standings (they went 1-1-2 in their final four).  At any rate, it was a crazy finish to that season for sure. 

 

OK, apologies to Tri, no more from me on this. 

[SterioDesign]

5 hours ago, NJDfan1711 said:

Obviously there's about less than a 1% chance of us making the playoffs, and this team getting a top 3 pick is probably the best thing that could happen to it, but with the way the Blues were playing earlier in the season and how they were basically neck and neck with us for a while in the league-wide standings, it's amazing to see them go on a 10 game winning streak right now especially this late in the season, and I gotta be honest, it leaves me with thoughts of..."why can't we do that?"

The better question is... why would we want them to do that?

It's very important to look at the big picture here. 

I do understand that some fans find comfort in the idea of the team playing well and mayyyyyyyyyyyyyyybe squeezing in the playoffs... and adopt the good ol "once you're in you never know".. but i mean... if were honest, we know damn well we have NO chance at a cup with this lineup. its absolutely delusional and it's 100% driven by not being able to handle some sh!t hockey for awhile. Of course it sucks. But its necessary at that point. And why? Well exactly cause the previous management had that same mentality and stripped us from talent and never looked at the future.

With the state of the team right now, we NEED to put ourselves in the best position to "control" our destiny and get more talent. we CANNOT rely on free agency. We need to grow our talent and the best drafting position is the best we opportunity we have.

To put things in perspective... Just imagine Pens or Caps fans back in 2004 hoping their team could just squeeeeeze in the playoff cause they sucked for so long they can't stand it. Well say they magically get what they want to fill their selfish needs... then imagine Pittsburgh with Drew Stafford and Marek Zagrapan instead of Malkin and Crosby. It's fair to say that pittsburgh would be a different franchise now

Same thing with us... in a few years are we going to be happy that we overachieved and made the playoffs by a point... just to lose in the first round, draft McLeod who may never be anything, instead of drafting Dahlin, Svechnikov, Tkachuk or kotkaniemi to be part of our core for years?

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by SterioDesign

[Steven M.]

5 hours ago, SterioDesign said:

The better question is... why would we want them to do that?

It's very important to look at the big picture here. 

I do understand that some fans find comfort in the idea of the team playing well and mayyyyyyyyyyyyyyybe squeezing in the playoffs... and adopt the good ol "once you're in you never know".. but i mean... if were honest, we know damn well we have NO chance at a cup with this lineup. its absolutely delusional and it's 100% driven by not being able to handle some sh!t hockey for awhile. Of course it sucks. But its necessary at that point. And why? Well exactly cause the previous management had that same mentality and stripped us from talent and never looked at the future.

With the state of the team right now, we NEED to put ourselves in the best position to "control" our destiny and get more talent. we CANNOT rely on free agency. We need to grow our talent and the best drafting position is the best we opportunity we have.

To put things in perspective... Just imagine Pens or Caps fans back in 2004 hoping their team could just squeeeeeze in the playoff cause they sucked for so long they can't stand it. Well say they magically get what they want to fill their selfish needs... then imagine Pittsburgh with Drew Stafford and Marek Zagrapan instead of Malkin and Crosby. It's fair to say that pittsburgh would be a different franchise now

Same thing with us... in a few years are we going to be happy that we overachieved and made the playoffs by a point... just to lose in the first round, draft McLeod who may never be anything, instead of drafting Dahlin, Svechnikov, Tkachuk or kotkaniemi to be part of our core for years?

 

 

 

I agree with your sentiment of wanting to get the best pick possible, but we got Ty Smith last year. McLeod was after the like 84 point season or whatever, Hynes' first year.

[mfitz804]

8 hours ago, Steven M. said:

I agree with your sentiment of wanting to get the best pick possible, but we got Ty Smith last year. McLeod was after the like 84 point season or whatever, Hynes' first year.

We should just tank every year and get like 4 number one picks in a row. Worked for the Oilers!

 

[Daniel]

Getting one of the top two picks opens up other possibilities.  You can more easily trade someone like Bratt for a good young defenseman.  It also makes the possibility of an offer sheet to someone like Trouba much more palatable.

[NJDfan1711]

20 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

We should just tank every year and get like 4 number one picks in a row. Worked for the Oilers!

 

Exactly.

13 hours ago, SterioDesign said:

The better question is... why would we want them to do that?

It's very important to look at the big picture here. 

I do understand that some fans find comfort in the idea of the team playing well and mayyyyyyyyyyyyyyybe squeezing in the playoffs... and adopt the good ol "once you're in you never know".. but i mean... if were honest, we know damn well we have NO chance at a cup with this lineup. its absolutely delusional and it's 100% driven by not being able to handle some sh!t hockey for awhile. Of course it sucks. But its necessary at that point. And why? Well exactly cause the previous management had that same mentality and stripped us from talent and never looked at the future.

With the state of the team right now, we NEED to put ourselves in the best position to "control" our destiny and get more talent. we CANNOT rely on free agency. We need to grow our talent and the best drafting position is the best we opportunity we have.

To put things in perspective... Just imagine Pens or Caps fans back in 2004 hoping their team could just squeeeeeze in the playoff cause they sucked for so long they can't stand it. Well say they magically get what they want to fill their selfish needs... then imagine Pittsburgh with Drew Stafford and Marek Zagrapan instead of Malkin and Crosby. It's fair to say that pittsburgh would be a different franchise now

Same thing with us... in a few years are we going to be happy that we overachieved and made the playoffs by a point... just to lose in the first round, draft McLeod who may never be anything, instead of drafting Dahlin, Svechnikov, Tkachuk or kotkaniemi to be part of our core for years?

 

 

 

I'm not saying that this is the best possible scenario, but indeed if I had to pick between making the playoffs, albeit barely, and sitting through one or more dreadful seasons in hopes of maybe obtaining a high/world-class pick, I think I'd choose playoffs, and probably every time.  It's essentially for the exact reason you mentioned, that once you're in, you never know.  It's basically true with the reverse, once you finish last, you never know - you probably, but not necessarily, will get the best/highest draft pick, and then down the road, hopefully he turns into the player he's projected to be and transforms your team.  But in that scenario, you're basically having to choose between two opposing circumstances, neither of which is guaranteed - the first, a positive circumstance where your team is a fringe team and gets a shot at competing for the ultimate prize, regardless of how much of a longshot or dark horse they may be, the other, a negative circumstance where your team is a bottom feeder and pinning their hopes on obtaining a difference maker or, in extremely rare cases, a generational talent.  With neither situation being an absolute certainty, I guess it more or less comes down to whether you're a glass half full or half empty kind of person.  I consider myself an optimist and a glass half full type of person, so I think that's why I'd choose playoffs.  To each his own.

[Devilsfan118]

 

8 hours ago, Steven M. said:

I agree with your sentiment of wanting to get the best pick possible, but we got Ty Smith last year. McLeod was after the like 84 point season or whatever, Hynes' first year.

Two guys who have yet to prove a thing in the NHL.  One who is taking a long time (relative to today's NHL) to develop, FWIW

I wouldn't hang your hat on those guys just yet as examples of why we shouldn't be trying to get as high a pick as possible.

48 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

We should just tank every year and get like 4 number one picks in a row. Worked for the Oilers!

I mean, the entire management system in Edmonton is beyond fvcked.  They're a terrible, terrible example of how to run an organization.  Their problems run much deeper than just being lousy because they tanked.  

They had four in six years (close enough), but anyway - I would venture to say that if you gave any other franchise in the NHL four number one picks in that time frame.. they wouldn't be floundering like the Oilers.

3 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

I'm not saying that this is the best possible scenario, but indeed if I had to pick between making the playoffs, albeit barely, and sitting through one or more dreadful seasons in hopes of maybe obtaining a high/world-class pick, I think I'd choose playoffs, and probably every time.  It's essentially for the exact reason you mentioned, that once you're in, you never know.  It's basically true with the reverse, once you finish last, you never know - you probably, but not necessarily, will get the best/highest draft pick, and then down the road, hopefully he turns into the player he's projected to be and transforms your team.  But in that scenario, you're basically having to choose between two opposing circumstances, neither of which is guaranteed - the first, a positive circumstance where your team is a fringe team and gets a shot at competing for the ultimate prize, regardless of how much of a longshot or dark horse they may be, the other, a negative circumstance where your team is a bottom feeder and pinning their hopes on obtaining a difference maker or, in extremely rare cases, a generational talent.  With neither situation being an absolute certainty, I guess it more or less comes down to whether you're a glass half full or half empty kind of person.  I consider myself an optimist and a glass half full type of person, so I think that's why I'd choose playoffs.  To each his own.

Is that you, Lou?

Have you seen the eastern conference this year?  This whole "you never know" stuff is nonsense - we'd get smoked by any of the teams above us in the east this year.  This team is not a competitive roster.

You need talent to compete in today's NHL.  First round exits and selecting in the middle of the first round, barring an extremely lucky pick, are not the way to do it.

Rebuild.  Rebuild.  Rebuild.  Had we rebuilt after 2012 like we should have we wouldn't even be having this tired conversation at this point.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Devilsfan118

[NJDfan1711]

16 hours ago, mfitz804 said:

Florida absolutely did. That wasn’t the question though. The question was why we never go on an epic run, and the answer is, we just did last year. Whether Florida was more epic is irrelevant. 

I dunno, I guess I don't think that was necessarily epic.  And, Florida being more epic absolutely is relevant - if someone accomplishes something so extraordinary, it can make another feat or accomplishment seem less impressive.  That's essentially how accomplishments work, and how records are created lol.  Gretzky scoring 50 goals in 39 games was epic - if someone does it next year in 29 games, it'll seem much less epic, because the bar has been raised.  

It's kinda hard to sit here and be in awe at what the Devils did down the stretch last year when there was a team in parallel basically doing the same thing, but better. 

Edited February 19, 2019 by NJDfan1711

[mfitz804]

1 hour ago, NJDfan1711 said:

I dunno, I guess I don't think that was necessarily epic.  And, Florida being more epic absolutely is relevant - if someone accomplishes something so extraordinary, it can make another feat or accomplishment seem less impressive.  That's essentially how accomplishments work, and how records are created lol.  Gretzky scoring 50 goals in 39 games was epic - if someone does it next year in 29 games, it'll seem much less epic, because the bar has been raised.  

It's kinda hard to sit here and be in awe at what the Devils did down the stretch last year when there was a team in parallel basically doing the same thing, but better. 

I'm not in awe of it, you were talking about a team that went on a 10 game win streak and asking why we never do that. You've lost sight of your original argument at this point. Whether Florida had a good run also wasn't the point. The point was, Taylor Hall took a sh!t team on his back and marched it into the playoffs last year. That was us pulling off the miracle you were looking for. 

[Satans Hockey]

If we were guaranteed the first overall pick then maybe, and just maybe I could get on board with the whole tanking process that some of you like but the 2017 draft lotto alone is enough for me to just want to root for the team to win every game and whatever happens, happens. 

That draft the Devils won the 1st pick and jumped up from 5th to 1st. Philly from 13th to 2nd and Dallas from 8th to 3rd.

Sure it's not like that every year but I'd rather just try to win out and whatever happens, happens but this team has shown they can't win consistently anyway so a crazy winning streak really isn't anything to worry about anyway. 

[NJDfan1711]

Just now, mfitz804 said:

I'm not in awe of it, you were talking about a team that went on a 10 game win streak and asking why we never do that. You've lost sight of your original argument at this point. Whether Florida had a good run also wasn't the point. The point was, Taylor Hall took a sh!t team on his back and marched it into the playoffs last year. That was us pulling off the miracle you were looking for. 

Taylor Hall had a miracle individual run.  I don't think our team did.

[SterioDesign]

1 hour ago, Devilsfan118 said:

 

Two guys who have yet to prove a thing in the NHL.  One who is taking a long time (relative to today's NHL) to develop, FWIW

I wouldn't hang your hat on those guys just yet as examples of why we shouldn't be trying to get as high a pick as possible.

I mean, the entire management system in Edmonton is beyond fvcked.  They're a terrible, terrible example of how to run an organization.  Their problems run much deeper than just being lousy because they tanked.  

They had four in six years (close enough), but anyway - I would venture to say that if you gave any other franchise in the NHL four number one picks in that time frame.. they wouldn't be floundering like the Oilers.

Is that you, Lou?

Have you seen the eastern conference this year?  This whole "you never know" stuff is nonsense - we'd get smoked by any of the teams above us in the east this year.  This team is not a competitive roster.

You need talent to compete in today's NHL.  First round exits and selecting in the middle of the first round, barring an extremely lucky pick, are not the way to do it.

Rebuild.  Rebuild.  Rebuild.  Had we rebuilt after 2012 like we should have we wouldn't even be having this tired conversation at this point.

I don't get some posters here. They have that all out mentality to blindly shoot for the playoffs no matter what our chance at a cup is. Totally willing to get a worst draft position and totally willing to not trade a player and go all out and possibly losing that player for nothing to free agency. I mean, i get the "never say die" attitude and on paper it sounds great but it's a business and it's simply not realistic and good for business.

Then the same posters will whine that we don't have talent and suck during the season. You reap what you sow. 

Growing your talent is the best way to do it or trade for talent with assets you have. Which is all through the draft. You can't rely on free agency too much especially if you're not an attractive destination at the moment.

[mfitz804]

14 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

 I mean, i get the "never say die" attitude and on paper it sounds great but it's a business and it's simply not realistic and good for business.

I'm a hockey fan, not a businessman. If one wants to be a message board GM, you're totally right. I just want my team to win and I can't turn that off. 

[Devil Dan 56]

1 hour ago, mfitz804 said:

I'm a hockey fan, not a businessman. If one wants to be a message board GM, you're totally right. I just want my team to win and I can't turn that off. 

Agreed on this... Id love to see Hughes or Kaako as a Devil, and I joke about tanking but I'm not gonna pretend watching them come back against Minnesota and then have a nice win against Buffalo wasn't awesome. When it comes to the draft, I feel like the chips will fall where they fall

[Steadevils]

2 hours ago, mfitz804 said:

I'm a hockey fan, not a businessman. If one wants to be a message board GM, you're totally right. I just want my team to win and I can't turn that off. 

 

1 hour ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

Agreed on this... Id love to see Hughes or Kaako as a Devil, and I joke about tanking but I'm not gonna pretend watching them come back against Minnesota and then have a nice win against Buffalo wasn't awesome. When it comes to the draft, I feel like the chips will fall where they fall

 

I think you can walk the fence and enjoy some specific moments in the short term, while still having a hopeful vision of the future after the losses the rest of the way. The problem with win now and let "the chips will fall where they fall" attitude is that the probabilities are an unavoidable known. Yes, it is still a lottery, but losing to maximize the odds is how the system is set up. That some fans may want to improve those probabilities by losing now seems like an acceptable based-in-reality mindset. 

[mfitz804]

32 minutes ago, Steadevils said:

That some fans may want to improve those probabilities by losing now seems like an acceptable based-in-reality mindset. 

As I have said in the past, it probably makes sense. But my heart won’t let me support it. 

[Devil Dan 56]

6 hours ago, Steadevils said:

 

 

I think you can walk the fence and enjoy some specific moments in the short term, while still having a hopeful vision of the future after the losses the rest of the way. The problem with win now and let "the chips will fall where they fall" attitude is that the probabilities are an unavoidable known. Yes, it is still a lottery, but losing to maximize the odds is how the system is set up. That some fans may want to improve those probabilities by losing now seems like an acceptable based-in-reality mindset. 

Oh yea, I totally get that this is how its done now. I just want to see them win. But with a season like this, I'm happy when they win and I'm not bothered when they lose because it means a better pick. 

[SterioDesign]

Well nobody want or like to lose and tank. But there's time when it's a necessity and the way the team was ran in the past made it a necessity. It's a bit like being terrible at managing money and having terrible spending habits... then whining that you're always broke lol At some point.. you need to look at the bigger picture and do something about it.

Seriously the fact that one of the biggest reason the team is lacking so much talent and suck this much is because of that mentality... and to me, to see some people still pushing for that mentality is like watching someone dying from lungs cancer and still smoking a full pack of cigarettes every day. Then you can't really say that life is unfair you know.

Edited February 20, 2019 by SterioDesign

[Nicomo]

17 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

Well nobody want or like to lose and tank. But there's time when it's a necessity and the way the team was ran in the past made it a necessity. It's a bit like being terrible at managing money and having terrible spending habits... then whining that you're always broke lol At some point.. you need to look at the bigger picture and do something about it.

Seriously the fact that one of the biggest reason the team is lacking so much talent and suck this much is because of that mentality... and to me, to see some people still pushing for that mentality is like watching someone dying from lungs cancer and still smoking a full pack of cigarettes every day. Then you can't really say that life is unfair you know.

2 analogies and neither involved a girlfriend? C’mon man, you’re slipping lol

Decent results tonight. Devils lost, Ducks won, and Oilers picked up a point. 

[Steven M.]

21 hours ago, Devilsfan118 said:

Two guys who have yet to prove a thing in the NHL.  One who is taking a long time (relative to today's NHL) to develop, FWIW

I wouldn't hang your hat on those guys just yet as examples of why we shouldn't be trying to get as high a pick as possible.

not hanging my hat on anything, merely correcting him that McLeod was not drafted in the same year as Dahlin, etc. Ty Smith was. I am of the opinion that McLeod will never be more than a 3rd liner at best. Hopefully, the Boqvist pick will make up for that but if not the Bratt pick is certainly something we can hang our hats on.

Regardless, I agree with hoping for losses. I can't bring myself to root against Cory getting right, but he's not going to win every game he plays in regardless of whether I root for it or not so... Objectively, last night was a pretty good result for the Devils. Johansson and Bratt put on a show, Kinkaid continued commanding the tank, and the following happened elsewhere:

AZ won, pushing them to 5 points ahead of the Devils, and also allowed EDM to take them to OT with a goal in the last 11 seconds so they're now tied with us at 54 points, but have played one less games (and still may potentially add at the deadline, which would be hilarious)

ANA won, now 3 pts above NJD

FLA won, now 6 pts above NJD

NYR won, now 6 pts above NJD

Other than maybe EDM winning that 3 point game I don't think it could have went any better. Tonight, we have two important games, CHI (59 PTS) @ DET (54 PTS) and WPG @ COL (59 PTS). The other two games on the schedule. So let's go Red Wings in OT and Go Avs...

Thursday is a massive game for the tank... Ottawa coming in to town. I'm not going to be too upset if we win that game though, it seems virtually impossible that Ottawa would pass us, they're 5 PTS back, have already shut down Duchene, and will be moving Stone as well. They're pretty much locked into 31st in my eyes.

 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

18 hours ago, mfitz804 said:

As I have said in the past, it probably makes sense. But my heart won’t let me support it. 

Pretty close to my sentiments.  Here's where I am:  I can't actively root for my team to lose, especially while I'm watching one of their games.  Within each game, I'm rooting for the Devils (and some specific players as well).  But I'm definitely not at all heartbroken right now when they lose.  I feel like I'm emotionally covered either way, really.

Should the Devils truly collapse down the stretch, I can live with it, same way I did two years ago.  Doesn't mean I'll enjoy it, but if the Devils wind up with a top young player out of it, and the team is looking like a much more formidable opponent in a few years (hopefully sooner), then 2018-19 will feel like a distant memory. 

[Daniel]

14 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Pretty close to my sentiments.  Here's where I am:  I can't actively root for my team to lose, especially while I'm watching one of their games.  Within each game, I'm rooting for the Devils (and some specific players as well).  But I'm definitely not at all heartbroken right now when they lose.  I feel like I'm emotionally covered either way, really.

Should the Devils truly collapse down the stretch, I can live with it, same way I did two years ago.  Doesn't mean I'll enjoy it, but if the Devils wind up with a top young player out of it, and the team is looking like a much more formidable opponent in a few years (hopefully sooner), then 2018-19 will feel like a distant memory. 

They're losing in the best way possible in that bad goaltending has been the biggest contributor and obviously the team's best player being out for half of the season now.  There's a pretty good top to bottom roster there that has the potential to get a lot better for the start of next season. 

Re McLeod, drafting Bratt has made up that.  Bratt is in the top ten from that draft class in points and has missed a decent amount of time to injury. 

[Steadevils]

56 minutes ago, Daniel said:

They're losing in the best way possible in that bad goaltending has been the biggest contributor and obviously the team's best player being out for half of the season now.  There's a pretty good top to bottom roster there that has the potential to get a lot better for the start of next season. 

Re McLeod, drafting Bratt has made up that.  Bratt is in the top ten from that draft class in points and has missed a decent amount of time to injury. 

Agree on both points. If we were getting the Islanders somehow amazing goaltending I would have to think we'd be in a playoff spot right now. And yeah it looks like we will get 3 NHL players from the 2016 draft (Bratt, Anderson, Mcleod), so I bet we look back on that draft as a success . 

[MadDog2020]

1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Pretty close to my sentiments.  Here's where I am:  I can't actively root for my team to lose, especially while I'm watching one of their games.  Within each game, I'm rooting for the Devils (and some specific players as well).  But I'm definitely not at all heartbroken right now when they lose.  I feel like I'm emotionally covered either way, really.

Should the Devils truly collapse down the stretch, I can live with it, same way I did two years ago.  Doesn't mean I'll enjoy it, but if the Devils wind up with a top young player out of it, and the team is looking like a much more formidable opponent in a few years (hopefully sooner), then 2018-19 will feel like a distant memory. 

This is how I feel, to the letter. Couldn’t have said it better CR.

[Nicomo]

20 minutes ago, Steadevils said:

Agree on both points. If we were getting the Islanders somehow amazing goaltending I would have to think we'd be in a playoff spot right now. And yeah it looks like we will get 3 NHL players from the 2016 draft (Bratt, Anderson, Mcleod), so I bet we look back on that draft as a success . 

Little early to say on McLeod. He’s played like 4 minutes in the NHL, and for some reason can’t seem to get another call up.