Ray Shero and Devils Part Ways Effective Immediately

[Devil Dan 56]

2 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

I also wouldn't be all that surprised if, assuming one final blow-up between Shero and ownership did actually occur, if there was something along the lines of "YOU were the ones who insisted that I go get Subban!  I didn't even really want to make that move!"  Does feel like that one might have been owner-driven...but of course, I could be dead wrong on that. 

I'm not sure about that one. With poile involved that felt like all Ray with the aim being to appease Hall and strengthen the blue line. I'm sure ownership was all about that one too though. And I still like that trade because the thought of this defense with no PK but with Santini in there every night is a little scary. 

[Jerzey]

14 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

That wouldn't come as any great shock...especially if Shero was already skating on increasingly thin ice (forgot how fond the owners were of Hall, maybe how that whole situation was handled was what ticked off Harris and Blitzer the most).  Sometimes it really is that simple...a disagreement that blows up into a screaming match and with everyone's dander up and in a heated moment, someone either quits or loses his job.  

If something like that happened, wouldn't surprise me if it started with Shero proposing trading some vets for down-the-road pieces, ownership saying something along the lines of "Wait, you've already had almost five years, you just added a bunch of salary, and now assets that were supposed to help are being dealt away for...what exactly?  When is it that your plan starts to pay off?"  Then some words back and forth, escalation, plenty of yelling...and a roaring "THAT'S IT...YOU'RE FIIIIIIIIIIIRED!"

Yeah I have feeling the Hall situation has a lot to do with all of this. It was probably the reason he was going to be let go at the end of the year, if those rumors are true, and when he started arguing with Harris it was the final nail in the coffin. That’s my speculation at least.

[devlman]

34 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

That wouldn't come as any great shock...especially if Shero was already skating on increasingly thin ice (forgot how fond the owners were of Hall, maybe how that whole situation was handled was what ticked off Harris and Blitzer the most).  Sometimes it really is that simple...a disagreement that blows up into a screaming match and with everyone's dander up and in a heated moment, someone either quits or loses his job.  

If something like that happened, wouldn't surprise me if it started with Shero proposing trading some vets for down-the-road pieces, ownership saying something along the lines of "Wait, you've already had almost five years, you just added a bunch of salary, and now assets that were supposed to help are being dealt away for...what exactly?  When is it that your plan starts to pay off?"  Then some words back and forth, escalation, plenty of yelling...and a roaring "THAT'S IT...YOU'RE FIIIIIIIIIIIRED!"

But then the owners wouldn’t have agreed to deal Hall. Either way, they would’ve been in the loop on Shero’s thinking re Hall, so that whole situation should not have come as any surprise to them. If they drew the line and fired a really good mentor to our young players over Sami Vatanen then that’s even more bizarre.

[mfitz804]

4 hours ago, NJDfan1711 said:

Isn't that the point of a discussion board though?  You had the same problem when people (including me) were trying to guess when they thought Hall and/or Hynes would be gone.  You're nothing if you're not consistent though, I'll give you that  

My problem is people start stating things as if they are facts, despite the fact that they know absolutely nothing. 99% of what's being said here is completely without basis, but one person says it, and then other people say it, and then people start believing its true. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

48 minutes ago, devlman said:

But then the owners wouldn’t have agreed to deal Hall. Either way, they would’ve been in the loop on Shero’s thinking re Hall, so that whole situation should not have come as any surprise to them. If they drew the line and fired a really good mentor to our young players over Sami Vatanen then that’s even more bizarre.

Just because Shero was "allowed" to deal him off doesn't mean ownership was happy about how it all went down.  At least they realized that forcing Shero to keep Hall and almost certainly lose him for nothing wasn't going to do the Devils any good...even if they were disappointed to have to see him go.  

As far as specific vets go, if anything, I think it was more about what dealing off those vets represented.  Like DD56 alluded to, I could see ownership feeling like this was becoming an endless cycle, and running out of patience.  I do think this ownership (who I don't think is necessarily blessed with great hockey knowledge) saw this as step-by-step...and saw the Devils make the playoffs in Step/Year 3 (figuring "Perfect, we're right where we should be!"), and expected that there wasn't going to be such a drop-off, and weren't mentally prepared for events that could lead to a rebuild within a rebuild (ie being deadline sellers).  Looks like Shero had one chance to build this team up from Ground Zero and one "mulligan" season (last year being that season).  Still don't know why the hell Shero was signed to such a long extension though...it does make me wonder if things are as dysfunctional as some believe.  God I hope not.  

Edited January 14, 2020 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Jerzey]

One thing we know for sure is we won’t be hiring so many former Penguins anymore.

[RunninWithTheDevil]

5 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Just because Shero was "allowed" to deal him off doesn't mean ownership was happy about how it all went down.  At least they realized that forcing Shero to keep Hall and almost certainly lose him for nothing wasn't going to do the Devils any good...even if they were disappointed to have to see him go.  

As far as specific vets go, if anything, I think it was more about what dealing off those vets represented.  Like DD56 alluded to, I could see ownership feeling like this was becoming an endless cycle, and running out of patience.  I do think this ownership (who I don't think is necessarily blessed with great hockey knowledge) saw this as step-by-step...and saw the Devils make the playoffs in Step/Year 3 (figuring "Perfect, we're right where we should be!"), and expected that there wasn't going to be such a drop-off, and weren't mentally prepared for events that could lead to a rebuild within a rebuild (ie being deadline sellers).  Looks like Shero had one chance to build this team up from Ground Zero and one "mulligan" season (last year being that season).  Still don't know why the hell Shero was signed to such a long extension though...it does make me wonder if things are as dysfunctional as some believe.  God I hope not.  

I think people are looking into the extension the wrong way though. I believe the extension was a good-faith move by the owners to basically say "Look, we trust your 'process' and your future THIS MANY dollars, now it's time to execute.", but the season just didn't pan out as they'd hoped (understatement of the century). I don't think it was a "dysfunctional" move to throw Ray a bone.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

10 minutes ago, RunninWithTheDevil said:

I think people are looking into the extension the wrong way though. I believe the extension was a good-faith move by the owners to basically say "Look, we trust your 'process' and your future THIS MANY dollars, now it's time to execute.", but the season just didn't pan out as they'd hoped (understatement of the century). I don't think it was a "dysfunctional" move to throw Ray a bone.

Two years would've represented more of a "good faith, at least you're not a lame duck" kind of move.  Four years should show that you fully and firmly trust your GM...and that you're willing to stand by him even if there's some detours in his "process"...not necessarily for four years, but at least a couple.  To see that shattered just a half-season later...does make one wonder what the hell changed so fast, in ownership's eyes...of course, we've done plenty of speculating as to why this happened, but it's still amazing that ownership had become so disillusioned with Shero that they decided the guy who they had just committed heavily to suddenly and absolutely had to go.  That's the part that feels dysfunctional.  

Edited January 14, 2020 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[RunninWithTheDevil]

2 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Two years would've represented more of a "good faith, at least you're not a lame duck" kind of move.  Four years should show that you fully and firmly trust your GM...and that you're willing to stand by him even if there's some detours in his "process"...not necessarily for four years, but at least a couple.  To see that shattered just a half-season later...does make one wonder what the hell changed so fast, in ownership's eyes...of course, we've done plenty of speculating as to why this happened, but it's still amazing that ownership had become so disillusioned with Shero that they decided the guy who they had just committed heavily to suddenly and absolutely had to go.  That's the part that feels dysfunctional.  

RE: bolded, you make a great point 

And yeah I said before that the timing is absolutely mind-boggling and looks very "Mickey Mouse" from the outside in. I stop short of 'dysfunctional' ONLY because we don't really know what happened in that room. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

1 minute ago, RunninWithTheDevil said:

RE: bolded, you make a great point 

And yeah I said before that the timing is absolutely mind-boggling and looks very "Mickey Mouse" from the outside in. I stop short of 'dysfunctional' ONLY because we don't really know what happened in that room. 

Re:  the bolded, sure, could be that if there was some big-time argument and difference of opinion, that it reached the point where it could only end one way.  We'll probably never find out exactly what happened...if/when Shero does release a statement, I would expect it to be "I thank the Devils for the opportunity, but unfortunately we all felt we'd be better served by moving on as the vision did not meet the reality, we had different ideas, blah blah blah..."  Definitely won't be "I told Harris and Blitzer where they could stick it if they wanted to start getting involved with on-ice personnel decisions, and then they told me where I could stick my job."  

Def not the best optics though, regardless of the circumstances.  

[Devil Dan 56]

2 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Two years would've represented more of a "good faith, at least you're not a lame duck" kind of move.  Four years should show that you fully and firmly trust your GM...and that you're willing to stand by him even if there's some detours in his "process"...not necessarily for four years, but at least a couple.  To see that shattered just a half-season later...does make one wonder what the hell changed so fast, in ownership's eyes...of course, we've done plenty of speculating as to why this happened, but it's still amazing that ownership had become so disillusioned with Shero that they decided the guy who they had just committed heavily to suddenly and absolutely had to go.  That's the part that feels dysfunctional.  

I really think Hall was huge in this. I think ownership's expectations were that the season would start and pick up from the strong-ish ending to last year, Hall re-signs, PK is PK, Hughes jumps right in, the Devils are in the wild card picture etc. When not one of those things happened and Ray didn't seem to want to fire Hynes, I feel like things soured very quickly. Once they realized Hall wasn't re-signing and HAD to be moved, they were probably very unhappy. 

 

[DevsMan84]

I wonder if Hall publicly stating that he never even got a contract offer from Shero is what set the alarms off for Harris and Blitzer.

It certainly was concerning for me.  If you two are way too far apart that is one thing, but to not at least throw something out there is very odd.

[lucifer91]

Has there been any comments or interviews from Shero yet?  I wonder if at some point he sheds a little light on what happened??

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

38 minutes ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

I really think Hall was huge in this. I think ownership's expectations were that the season would start and pick up from the strong-ish ending to last year, Hall re-signs, PK is PK, Hughes jumps right in, the Devils are in the wild card picture etc. When not one of those things happened and Ray didn't seem to want to fire Hynes, I feel like things soured very quickly. Once they realized Hall wasn't re-signing and HAD to be moved, they were probably very unhappy. 

What I will wonder about is if Ray (over)pitched an aggressive offseason plan to ownership, who then gave him the full green light to do anything that he wanted (especially if part of the pitch was that this flurry of offseason activity would work out well enough that Hall would be a certainty to re-sign, even if Ray knew that there were still no guarantees on that front)...with ownership coming back with "OK Ray, you sold us, but this all better work!"...or if ownership pushed Ray to make "right now" moves before he was fully ready to do so, to speed things up.  Even if we don't know the exact details, seems fairly clear that one party had a sudden change of heart.  Almost feels like ownership was bottling up some anger as this thing fell apart, and then finally exploded (seemingly out of nowhere, especially with the team actually playing better as of late).  

The one move I would suspect was "collaborative" was PK.  I could picture Shero making some kind of Pros and Cons list re:  PK and presenting it to ownership...I think Shero has always been thorough when it comes to player acquisitions, which is why even the ones that didn't work just about all seemed to make good sense at the time they were made (I don't think Shero could've had worse luck that he did with MoJo...that seemed like an absolute no-brainer at the time, and it didn't work out at all).  I could see Shero pointing out that though PK could regain his 2017-18 form, and that he wouldn't have to give up an insane amount in assets to get him, that there were reasons that it might not work...and that the numbers from 2018-19 could be interpreted as the beginning of a decline.  I think the owners liked the idea of a high-profile player like Subban coming aboard, and that if he could be even 80-90% of what he'd been at his peak, that it could be a killer move both off and on the ice.  So even if Shero might have been on the fence about bringing him in, the owners maybe pushed him just enough on making that move that he took the plunge.  

Edited January 14, 2020 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

26 minutes ago, lucifer91 said:

Has there been any comments or interviews from Shero yet?  I wonder if at some point he sheds a little light on what happened??

I would expect something from him eventually, but nothing that telling or incriminating.  I think he would like to get another GM gig, and ripping your old team in the process doesn't always go over well...especially since from a strictly forensic angle, Shero's track record here doesn't look terribly impressive.  Sometimes you take the high road until you're truly out of the game...and that's when you go full Neil Smith (DM84 saw him speak at a jersey expo and suffice it to say that Smith was PLENTY forthcoming about how he felt about certain people then).  

Edited January 14, 2020 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[HellOnICE]

Also Ray's getting paid, not going to disparage an organization. It's a small club.

[lazer]

He may not have made hall an offer cause they wernt taking any until season end.

 

Hall can still say they didnt make an offer knowing he was holding out.

Edited January 14, 2020 by lazer

[DevsMan84]

24 minutes ago, lazer said:

He may not have made hall an offer cause they wernt taking any until season end.

 

Hall can still say they didnt make an offer knowing he was holding out.

That's possible.  Shero did have at least a few sit-downs with Hall's agent from what we have learned and Ray may have figured they were just really too far apart.

However, if that is indeed how it went down, I still wish Shero would have at least thrown a formal offer out there.  At least that way he could have covered himself in telling the owners "hey, I tried and he said no."  Instead we hear from Hall saying he never got any offers from Ray.  Is that how he is going to deal with every pending top-tier free agent going forward?

[mfitz804]

8 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

That's possible.  Shero did have at least a few sit-downs with Hall's agent from what we have learned and Ray may have figured they were just really too far apart.

However, if that is indeed how it went down, I still wish Shero would have at least thrown a formal offer out there.  At least that way he could have covered himself in telling the owners "hey, I tried and he said no."  Instead we hear from Hall saying he never got any offers from Ray.  Is that how he is going to deal with every pending top-tier free agent going forward?

It’s basic negotiating. You don’t put an offer on the table on the other side says they are not willing to consider any offer at this time. Are use that tactic every single day.

[DevsMan84]

7 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

It’s basic negotiating. You don’t put an offer on the table on the other side says they are not willing to consider any offer at this time. Are use that tactic every single day.

Maybe I am reading into Hall's words wrong, but he seemed at least somewhat disappointed that an offer wasn't made.

I do think Hall and his agent were probably playing hardball but judging by what I think I saw/heard I don't think they weren't at least open to some sort of offer.

[DevsMan84]

And IIRC, Shero even made a competitive offer to Shattenkirk 3 years ago even though Shattenkirk made it pretty well known that he was certainly going to sign with the Rangers.

No one, even the owners, can fault Shero for kicking tires on someone even though you have next to zero chance of getting the player.

[AEWHistory]

On 1/12/2020 at 7:06 PM, moustic said:

Please no Marty! 

I get that people feel that good players do not, necessarily, make good coaches and FO people.  However, the record in hockey is quite a bit different than in many other sports.  Gretzky turned out to be a pretty mediocre coach, but if memory serves the Devils two best coaches, Lemaire and Robinson, had somewhat promising careers, right folks?  😉  So if Lemaire and Robinson can win us Stanley Cups then I don’t see why Brodeur can’t do the same.  That doesn’t mean he is a guaranteed success, after all we are talking about GMing and not coaching, but I don’t see how hiring Marty is doomed to fail.  It seems to me, given his time in St. Louis, that he is more likely to succeed than most other options.

[njbuff]

I think the GM job is Marty's to lose at this point.

Give him a shot and see what he can do. What is there to lose at this point.

Marty should have a good building block with Nico and Hughes 1-2 down the middle.

I think Marty has the understanding that this organization needs to start developing Dman prospects and go from there.

I think the biggest reason Shero got fired is that he had 4+ years to develop quality defenseman and NOT ONE turned up during his time here. 

Just my cents.

[NJDevs4978]

7 hours ago, Devil Dan 56 said:

I'm not sure about that one. With poile involved that felt like all Ray with the aim being to appease Hall and strengthen the blue line. I'm sure ownership was all about that one too though. And I still like that trade because the thought of this defense with no PK but with Santini in there every night is a little scary. 

Appease Hall for what though...the evidence has come out that Ray never even made Hall an offer.  It seems obvious Ray only wanted Hall back at like a five-year deal which wasn't going to get it done anyway.

[NJDevs4978]

2 hours ago, mfitz804 said:

It’s basic negotiating. You don’t put an offer on the table on the other side says they are not willing to consider any offer at this time. Are use that tactic every single day.

Vatanen has also said Shero didn't make him an offer either.  If you want the guy back you at least 'attempt' to negotiate with him.