sundstrom Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Of course, with no referent for 'good', everyone assumes I'm saying that Kovalchuk and Nash are bad, instead of using even the slightest bit of tolerance to understand that 'not that good' means 'not as good as everyone thinks.' to be fair on this, you started by saying he was over-rated in the context of saying how awful his contract was. then you added by saying "not that good" which even i didn't take at first to mean, "plenty good, but not nearly as good as everyone is making him out to be". personally, i disagree with you and think that if the kovy we get is, by and large, the kovy of the last 40 games, we will be getting our money's worth. also - wrt his linemates - he's always going to have decent linemates most of the time (not counting 4th line double shifts). he was really pretty good last year when palmieri was prominently involved in his play. with elias and parise, they are pretty dominant this year. its taken a bit for him and parise to mesh and i'm still not convinced that if they were 100% healthy w/ zajac and josefson after 40 games, that they would be on a line together. frankly, kovalchuk's presence, along with the rise of henrique has me much less concerned if parise leaves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellOnICE Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Getting back to trade rumors. I'm very unsure of what exactly we need as we move forward. I can't put my finger on it. When healthy, I really like our forward group. I don't think there is anything we really "need" up front. Zajac healthy would be a great deadline pick up - and I think the insertion of Travis back will create a little line shuffling which will be enough to figure out as the season wins down without adding a non-roster player to the mix. Defensively though - I am unsure about going into the playoffs with the current D. We haven't seen us healthy - which is a bit of an issue. Assuming health. Fayne-Tallinder Volchenkov-Larsson Salvador-Greene I still don't trust that third pairing - and I am not sure who I trust less. I feel like I trust Greene less but I am not sure we can improve on Andy Greene - So this makes me think we should try and improve on Salvador in case Greene fvcks up. Would anyone be interested in a Hal Gill type? The goaltending will stay the same - that's fine. Do or die with what we got and move on in the summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njdevsftw Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I think Kovalchuk's cap hit is $1M to $2M too high. You should call Lou then, next time you're able to hook him up with a career point pr game player and multiple time 50 goal scorer, for $4,67M a season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caron14 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 You should call Lou then, next time you're able to hook him up with a career point pr game player and multiple time 50 goal scorer, for $4,67M a season. ahaha impossible... guy who score around 25 got that salary so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SterioDesign Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Manta thinks that the Devils will never win anything with Kovalchuk in the lineup because he's a toxic presence and whatever other nonsense he thinks. I think Kovalchuk's cap hit is $1M to $2M too high. There's a pretty massive difference, but I wouldn't expect you to understand that. what!?! you really think Kovalchuk is only worth 4.6m a year ? ...REALLY ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) to be fair on this, you started by saying he was over-rated in the context of saying how awful his contract was. then you added by saying "not that good" which even i didn't take at first to mean, "plenty good, but not nearly as good as everyone is making him out to be". personally, i disagree with you and think that if the kovy we get is, by and large, the kovy of the last 40 games, we will be getting our money's worth. also - wrt his linemates - he's always going to have decent linemates most of the time (not counting 4th line double shifts). he was really pretty good last year when palmieri was prominently involved in his play. with elias and parise, they are pretty dominant this year. its taken a bit for him and parise to mesh and i'm still not convinced that if they were 100% healthy w/ zajac and josefson after 40 games, that they would be on a line together. frankly, kovalchuk's presence, along with the rise of henrique has me much less concerned if parise leaves. Parise and Elias aren't 'decent linemates' though. It's hard to find a team that could give him two better linemates (who are healthy) right now. So yeah, over the last 14 games, Kovalchuk is at 58% Fenwick, which is really good, but I'd expect Parise and Elias together to be at that level. Meanwhile Kovalchuk's ability to shoot way above NHL average seems to have disappeared - probably as a result of him committing more to defense. I wouldn't be shocked if we saw a big drop in Kovalchuk's numbers if he were playing again with average linemates. You should call Lou then, next time you're able to hook him up with a career point pr game player and multiple time 50 goal scorer, for $4,67M a season. Just because the market values someone a certain way doesn't mean the market is right. If Kovalchuk were at all a play driver, if his team got more shots on goal and faced fewer shots on goal while he was on the ice, his current cap hit might be fair value, but he's not and it isn't. Have you ever considered that Kovalchuk being a point a game player and 50 goal scorer is in part due to his usage, both here and in Atlanta? No forward plays more than he does, and until this year, he was almost exclusively used in an offensive role, as the focal point of the offense. I imagine there's some value to being able to play tons of minutes and be a break-even player 5 on 5, but not all that much. And I'm not convinced that he's that good on the power play, either - he'll make his shots more than most playing in his role, and he'll make a few great passes, but the Devils' shots/60 on the PP has not really moved since his acquisition, and he'll give up a few on the backend because he's a forward playing defense. Where he is dominating, strangely enough, is on the penalty kill. http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2010/7/22/1581360/incidentally-what-is-kovalchuk There aren't many players who could be the focal point in the way that Kovalchuk is, but I'm not sold that there's a great deal of value to that. I'll concede that if he has improved, the cap hit is probably around par (even conceding that Kovalchuk's ability to shoot is down, his ability to defend is likely up), but down the road it's going to look mighty ugly. And remember that with the Devils' budget problems, the actual payment is going to matter. Edited February 10, 2012 by Triumph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgeControl Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) what!?! you really think Kovalchuk is only worth 4.6m a year ? ...REALLY ? over the last 19 games kovy has been earning his money and the devils have been winning and moving up. kovy is not the perfect player but he's not being paid 8 mil like an elite player. he's been forechecking, back checking, fighting and passing, winning shoot-outs, and is in plus territory over those 19 games +6 11g 14a yup he still turns the puck over too many times, and ends a rush with a horrible pass but if he didnt he would be elite and an 8 mil player. his 5 vs 5 production may be in the 4.5 mil area but he brings PP and SO talents which pushes him into the top 25 forward position if you want to say 500K to 750K over valued I'd buy that but he's not a 4-1/2 mil player Edited February 10, 2012 by EdgeControl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Oh - something I forgot to consider - Kovalchuk's shootout prowess this year is probably worth at least 1.x points in the standings, so he's probably above his cap hit in terms of value so far this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS-SS Posted February 11, 2012 Author Share Posted February 11, 2012 Sometime I feel that you (Triumph) really have some great points, but sometime I feel like you disagree only for the fun of disagreeing and arguing a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarpathianForest Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Must we post the argument clinic sketch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onddeck Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I know ESPN's Insider is like a joke but today they have one that says, "Parise still open to re-signing soon." Anyone know if that article says anything interesting?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayday Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I know ESPN's Insider is like a joke but today they have one that says, "Parise still open to re-signing soon." Anyone know if that article says anything interesting?? Look nobody knows anything about Parise resigning, especially ESPN. They are almost as bad as Єklund (2.3% accurate). Moving forward... Parise Kovy Elias --- Henrique Clarkson Zubrus Poni Sykora Josefson When healthy we have great power up front with those top three and plenty of depth and balance with those next 6 forwards especially if Sykora can start producing again. I don't know what kind of trade we could make that would improve our top 9 that doesn't hurt us somewhere else. Honestly, the defense isn't the best but we'll see. I'd like to like to see a strong pickup for the backend. Im pretty confident in Marty/Moose for the long run here. I don't think Parise will be traded unless were getting a top #1/#2 defender in return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mort4345 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The question that's killing me right now concerning the whole Parise saga is this: What exactly is management waiting for regarding the start of negotiations? Is it simply the Devils history of not negotiating within the confines of the regular season? Is it that Lou is trying to first get a handle on the general changes that will be coming to the CBA (ie. where is the likely salary cap range going to come in at?) before he offers Parise a long-term contract? Is it that Lou really has no plans on re-signing Parise, but isn't going to move him so this current team can take one last run at the Cup? Is Lou retiring at the end of the season and, in respect to the incoming GM, he doesn't want to make a decision now and bind the hands of the new GM? Parise has said that he's open to starting negotiations basically whenever. But he doesn't seem to have been told why nothing has been taking place to date. That seems weird to me. Or is everyone just playing everything close to the vest in an effort to work something out behind the scenes? Or is Lou secretly entertaining a blockbuster trade? In any event, I know there are probably only three people on the planet who actually know the answer to these questions. That being said, I can't seem to stop obsessing with the logic/rationale behind the slow pace of negotiations so far. I think I need to get more of a life ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLL765 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The question that's killing me right now concerning the whole Parise saga is this: What exactly is management waiting for regarding the start of negotiations? Is it simply the Devils history of not negotiating within the confines of the regular season? Is it that Lou is trying to first get a handle on the general changes that will be coming to the CBA (ie. where is the likely salary cap range going to come in at?) before he offers Parise a long-term contract? Is it that Lou really has no plans on re-signing Parise, but isn't going to move him so this current team can take one last run at the Cup? Is Lou retiring at the end of the season and, in respect to the incoming GM, he doesn't want to make a decision now and bind the hands of the new GM? Parise has said that he's open to starting negotiations basically whenever. But he doesn't seem to have been told why nothing has been taking place to date. That seems weird to me. Or is everyone just playing everything close to the vest in an effort to work something out behind the scenes? Or is Lou secretly entertaining a blockbuster trade? In any event, I know there are probably only three people on the planet who actually know the answer to these questions. That being said, I can't seem to stop obsessing with the logic/rationale behind the slow pace of negotiations so far. I think I need to get more of a life ... Lou has always done things fairly quietly when it's come to signing impending FA's and Parise hasn't said anything along the lines of what Suter said to the media, so I'm not gonna worry about it until either A. Parise is traded or B. Parise walks on July 1st. I wouldn't be surprised even one bit to hear that after this season/playoffs are over for the team that Lou had a deal ready to go with Parise, but was just waiting to work out the details until there weren't any more games to be played this year. I know some people here think Lou has lost it, but with acquisitions like Ponikarovsky and to a lesser extent Foster, both of whom were obtained for players we either had no use for or couldn't even crack the NHL lineup, I think Lou has shown he still can read the market well. So I still trust that Lou knows what he's doing and that we have just as good, if not a better chance to sign Parise than any other team does. If not, I believe he will have a plan B of hopefully signing a #1-#2 offensive d-man, which imo, is what this teams needs to become a top 5 team in the NHL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caron14 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Hemsky close to be trade by incarcerated bob... NJ possible destination Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justdo3043 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 what would hemsky be worth to edm at this point anyway 2011-2012 Edmonton Oilers NHL 42 4 20 24 25 arent great numbers....i am not saying i don't want him but am saying nj could prob get him without giving up much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caron14 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 another rumor by uncarcerated... UPDATED NHL RUMORS**Source: Capitals looking like sellers (Semin / Erskine / Knuble) all are available (Sens / Devils / Flyers / Flames) Look like the word in the nhl is that the devils are buyers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amberite Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Way too early for Washington to throw in the towel, I don't believe it at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 The real rumors are about Rick Nash - oh god would it be hilarious if he came to the Rangers. $20 million locked up in 3 forwards and not a play driver in the bunch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDog2020 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 The real rumors are about Rick Nash - oh god would it be hilarious if he came to the Rangers. $20 million locked up in 3 forwards and not a play driver in the bunch. Lol. And if the Rangers land Nash, their fans will be proclaiming Cup left and right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Way too early for Washington to throw in the towel, I don't believe it at all. I don't think moving those guys necessarily screams seller considering they've been begging teams to take Semin since the off-season and Knuble is old and has been marginalized on their deep forward core Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellOnICE Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Knuble is interesting. What's the sabremetric rate on him. Is he still useful in a limited third line role? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amberite Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I don't think moving those guys necessarily screams seller considering they've been begging teams to take Semin since the off-season and Knuble is old and has been marginalized on their deep forward core Thing is that Washington isn't scoring nearly as much as they used to, and it's costing them games. Trading Semin now just doesn't make sense, because they're very unlikely to get something back that would help them in that department in the immediate term. Knuble sucks so whatever, but I just don't see these other trades going down unless they're ready to pack it in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njdevil26 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Ranger fans are unbelievable. They are one of the best teams in the league this season and want to make a trade for Nash? Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Rangers definitely have the room for him. It would take them out of the Parise sweepstakes. They'd probably have to trade Gaborik in the off-season, but hey, why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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