The Unintended GDT (1/19) Devils @ Kraken 10:00 PM EST MSGSN

[MB3]

3 minutes ago, SterioDesign said:

There's plenty of guys "putting the effort" but not producing like he does either. And from what im gathering here. Fans also don't appreciate "losing a game eventhough we played well", they want results. And being a PPG, more often than not he's giving us results

thank you. i appreciate it

I said we’re lucky to escape with a point and lauded our goaltender like six dozen times. I don’t owe you a fvcking qualifier before every post. 

I agree that at a point per game he is a valuable asset. I would prefer if that asset were traded in the off-season for a commensurately valuable asset, because I think paying a guy who takes off several shifts per game $8.5m is a paramountly idiotic thing to do. 

[Puckbuster]

The Kraken played well, the Devils struggled.  That said, I’m not down on them tonight.  They played a really good team at the tail end of a 5 game road trip that began with a win in Carolina.  I hope they can respond with a win against the Pens and string together a few wins.

Let’s go Devils!

[SterioDesign]

25 minutes ago, MB3 said:

I said we’re lucky to escape with a point and lauded our goaltender like six dozen times. I don’t owe you a fvcking qualifier before every post. 

I agree that at a point per game he is a valuable asset. I would prefer if that asset were traded in the off-season for a commensurately valuable asset, because I think paying a guy who takes off several shifts per game $8.5m is a paramountly idiotic thing to do. 

you don't owe me anything. but you posted your opinion on a message board and im giving my opinion about it. It's literally how it works lol You always struggle to wrap your head around that insanely basic premise it seems lol

So give us examples of realistic players you think would be equivalent to Bratt in term of production but bring enough constant effort to make you happy and that is not going to cost just as much as Bratt.

So you're saying paying Bratt 8.5m would be paramountly idiotic because he's taking several shifts off per game.

So if you truly believe that... Are you ready to re-evaluate your stance on Gaudreau? Since you still bring up us not getting him (at 9.5-10) everytime we don't score enough goals.... yet the guy cost MORE than Bratt, has less points than him now and he's also very much known for disappearing for long periods. Where's the logic exactly?

 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by SterioDesign

[Fansinz88]

Can’t bash them too much they looked sluggish I’ll take the point. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

7 hours ago, Lateralous said:

This is extreme and I would hate to lose a home grown 6th rounder that is as good as Bratt but I do think that regardless of time and inflation, the negotiations with him start at Nico's salary and go down from there.  If Bratt is intent on getting top dollar, Fitz should let him move on.  After the superstar start to the season, it feels like two months of empty calorie points keeping him at a PPG.   

He does have 13 points in his last 10 GP (6 G and 7 A) and he now has 119 points in his last 116 GP (44 G and 75 A...about 31 G and 53 A per 82 GP).  Prior to the 2021-22 season we would've damned near sold our souls for Bratt to ever become that productive.

I'm not saying he's absolutely flawless (and yes he can seem almost indifferent at times on the ice), but how many guys really are?  I hear what you're saying about Nico being a measuring stick, but the Devils committed to him before he fully blossomed...I was fully on-board with taking that risk at that time (as I was with Jack), but the Devils DID take a pretty sizable risk...and if anything, I don't think we EVER saw Nico putting up this kind of offense (and I love that he is, because I've always been firmly in his corner, even when I was worried about him potentially topping out as a "rich man's Zajac", or being able to stay healthy).  Bratt's cementing himself as a PPG player, which Jack and Nico had not yet become when they signed; they rolled the dice on long-term commitments with nice money right away, and the Devils rolled the dice on the two of them becoming bargains fairly quickly...this obviously paid off insanely well for the Devils, as barring injury or early decline, impossible to think that Jack and Nico don't continue to outperform their contracts by a significant margin.  But hard to hit organizational home runs like that in every contractual at-bat.

The other issue is that taking a look around the league at likely comps, it's going to be hard for Bratt's camp to accept what Nico's making (or less).  Bratt's probably going to be looking for $8.5 - 9 million AAV, 6 years minimum.  I'm not going to pretend that signing him to that kind of coin would thrill me, but who do you replace with him?  Even with the Devils appearing to have firmly turned the corner into being a competitive team for what should be several years, are high-profile UFAs any more eager to come to NJ?  Assuming no, then you may have to find a trade partner to replace his production, which will cost assets, and the organizational depth really isn't there for that.  The cap will also be going up, and the fact that your centers are clearly underpaid helps to offset Bratt likely getting what would be a "market value" contract, much as we may not love what a market value contract for Bratt would cost.

I'm not dead-set against the idea of the Devils moving on from him, as much as I don't see a better alternative scenario that makes the Devils a better team without him and/or doesn't thin out their prospect and asset in trying to replace his production.  

Edited January 20, 2023 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Satans Hockey]

Can't complain about 9 out of 10 points. What a fantastic road trip. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

2 minutes ago, Satans Hockey said:

Can't complain about 9 out of 10 points. What a fantastic road trip. 

Especially the last two games.  They easily could've come up empty, but somehow snagged three points.  

[mfitz804]

26 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

He does have 13 points in his last 10 GP (6 G and 7 A) and he now has 119 points in his last 116 GP (44 G and 75 A...about 31 G and 53 A per 82 GP).  Prior to the 2021-22 season we would've damned near sold our souls for Bratt to ever become that productive.

I'm not saying he's absolutely flawless (and yes he can seem almost indifferent at times on the ice), but how many guys really are?  I hear what you're saying about Nico being a measuring stick, but the Devils committed to him before he fully blossomed...I was fully on-board with taking that risk at that time (as I was with Jack), but the Devils DID take a pretty sizable risk...and if anything, I don't think we EVER saw Nico putting up this kind of offense (and I love that he is, because I've always been firmly in his corner, even when I was worried about him potentially topping out as a "rich man's Zajac", or being able to stay healthy).  Bratt's cementing himself as a PPG player, which Jack and Nico had not yet become when they signed; they rolled the dice on long-term commitments with nice money right away, and the Devils rolled the dice on the two of them becoming bargains fairly quickly...this obviously paid off insanely well for the Devils, as barring injury or early decline, impossible to think that Jack and Nico don't continue to outperform their contracts by a significant margin.  But hard to hit organizational home runs like that in every contractual at-bat.

The other issue is that taking a look around the league at likely comps, it's going to be hard for Bratt's camp to accept what Nico's making (or less).  Bratt's probably going to be looking for $8.5 - 9 million AAV, 6 years minimum.  I'm not going to pretend that signing him to that kind of coin would thrill me, but who do you replace with him?  Even with the Devils appearing to have firmly turned the corner into being a competitive team for what should be several years, are high-profile UFAs any more eager to come to NJ?  Assuming no, then you may have to find a trade partner to replace his production, which will cost assets, and the organizational depth really isn't there for that.  The cap will also be going up, and the fact that your centers are clearly underpaid helps to offset Bratt likely getting what would be a "market value" contract, much as we may not love what a market value contract for Bratt would cost.

I'm not dead-set against the idea of the Devils moving on from him, as much as I don't see a better alternative scenario that makes the Devils a better team without him and/or doesn't thin out their prospect and asset in trying to replace his production.  

Bottom line for me is we know his contract will be negotiated hard, and he’ll likely have to be slightly overpaid as a result of it. 

As much as we want to speculate, it will all come down to dollars and cents and none of us have any idea what he is looking for, what the Devils are looking to pay, or what figure in between they’d both settle on. I have every confidence that if the deal makes sense he will be retained. 

That said, I would have a pretty tough time giving Jesper the extra money that we should have paid Jack in his deal if he didn’t sign such a team friendly contract. Can we justify Jack not being the highest paid forward on this team (meaning THIS team, not if we add someone from outside that costs more)?

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

42 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

Bottom line for me is we know his contract will be negotiated hard, and he’ll likely have to be slightly overpaid as a result of it. 

As much as we want to speculate, it will all come down to dollars and cents and none of us have any idea what he is looking for, what the Devils are looking to pay, or what figure in between they’d both settle on. I have every confidence that if the deal makes sense he will be retained. 

That said, I would have a pretty tough time giving Jesper the extra money that we should have paid Jack in his deal if he didn’t sign such a team friendly contract. Can we justify Jack not being the highest paid forward on this team (meaning THIS team, not if we add someone from outside that costs more)?

At the time Jack signed his deal (11/30/2021), his career numbers didn't come close to justifying getting that kind of raise...he had 119 GP and had put up 20 G and 35 A, and had just missed a month-and-a-half due to injury.  Like I said, I had absolutely NO issue with the Devils taking that kind of a leap of faith at the time and was thrilled to know that he'd been locked up, but the circumstances at the time Jack signed his deal are simply much different than they'll be for Jesper.  Jesper's proving that he is indeed now a PPG player who can pretty consistently provide offense, who will have done so two years in row.  Jack hadn't yet done the same (though he soon would).

Yeah as fans all we can do is speculate, but based on his past negotiations, I expect this to be difficult and even though Jesper himself has said more than once that he wants to stick around, I suspect his camp is not looking to give much of a home discount.  Feels like he's 50-50 to stay.  I think Fitz treasures having cap flexibility just enough (and has an AAV limit in mind for Bratt that he won't be willing to exceed) that he'll simply try to come up with a Plan B and walk away from a long-term extension for Bratt if the asking price is too rich for Fitz's blood.  

Edited January 20, 2023 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Lateralous]

3 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

 

Yeah as fans all we can do is speculate, but based on his past negotiations, I expect this to be difficult and even though Jesper himself has said more than once that he wants to stick around, I suspect his camp is not looking to give much of a home discount.  Feels like he's 50-50 to stay.  I think Fitz treasures having cap flexibility just enough (and has an AAV limit in mind for Bratt that he won't be willing to exceed) that he'll simply try to come up with a Plan B and walk away from a long-term extension for Bratt if the asking price is too rich for Fitz's blood.  

I think this pretty much sums it up.  As painful as it would be, if he's asking too much you have to move one.  An undersized winger isn't exactly irreplaceable and giving him top dollar now before the team has accomplished anything feels too Maple Leafy to me.   When Toronto handed out the big contract to Tavares, it seemed like everyone else on that teams biggest worry, starting with Nylander, was making sure they got their cut of the money before the cap space ran out.   Having a good salary structure requires buy in from everyone. 

I look at teams like Tampa holding the line with other negotiations at Stamkos's contract for years and Colorado telling Gabe Landeskog he had to take less if he wanted to continue with the Avs and think that is the best way for Fitz to proceed with Bratt.  IMO, we have two guys on offense that can't be replaced and they are already locked in so if Fitz has to let him go because the ask is too big, so be it.     

     

[Chimaira_Devil_#9]

1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Especially the last two games.  They easily could've come up empty, but somehow snagged three points.  

The mark of a good team is they manage to find ways to pick up points even when they are not at their best. 

MoneyPuck has us at 99.6% chance of making the playoffs. They were never wrong all the years when they eliminated us early, so let's hope they are correct here. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

3 hours ago, Chimaira_Devil_#9 said:

The mark of a good team is they manage to find ways to pick up points even when they are not at their best. 

MoneyPuck has us at 99.6% chance of making the playoffs. They were never wrong all the years when they eliminated us early, so let's hope they are correct here. 

The goaltending really did the job on this trip:

Blackwood:  2 GP, 77 Shots, 71 Saves, .921 save%

Vanacek:  3 GP, 93 Shots, 85 Saves, .914 save%

And they faced a LOT of high danger chances...those save%s are really damned good, considering the onslaughts both faced.  The goaltending overall has been SOOOOOOO much better than last year...I know that I'm stating the obvious, but it's nice to not only get competent goaltending, but above and beyond, to the tune of "Stealing games and points".

Agree that good teams find ways to pick up some points when they don't have it, but I gotta admit, as great as it was to pick up 90% of the points on a tough trip (those West Coast jaunts are never a joy), the Devils often did not look great doing it.  You can get away with that over short samples, but they can't continue to get pounded like this and not expect a bad slump...not that I'm concerned about the Devils missing the playoffs (I think that absolutely is NOT going to happen), just that they've been up and down despite going 7-1-2 in their last 10 games.  They REALLY need Marino back desperately.  I also think Fitz needs to explore a trade to rent a veteran upgrade over Smith.  I like some of what I've seen out of Okhotiuk but not sure if he's ready enough.  Bahl I've pretty much given up on...he had a hell of an opportunity to stake a claim to a spot and just didn't impress.  He'll be 23 in June...starting to kinda get late for him to stick. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[mfitz804]

31 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

The goaltending really did the job on this trip:

Blackwood:  2 GP, 77 Shots, 71 Saves, .921 save%

Vanacek:  3 GP, 93 Shots, 85 Saves, .914 save%

To me, that says too many shots allowed and the defense got bailed out by great goaltending. 34 shots allowed per game is bottom 5 type numbers, and we got 9 out of 10 points regardless. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

2 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

To me, that says too many shots allowed and the defense got bailed out by great goaltending. 34 shots allowed per game is bottom 5 type numbers, and we got 9 out of 10 points regardless. 

Yeah that's EXACTLY what it's saying.  Last year the Devils get maybe 3-4 points of that trip.  They got away with it with flying colors on this trip, but they've gotta find a way to tighten things up.  

[Bonginator11]

26 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

To me, that says too many shots allowed and the defense got bailed out by great goaltending. 34 shots allowed per game is bottom 5 type numbers, and we got 9 out of 10 points regardless. 

Yep. We need Marino back badly. The defense was just way more stable with him in the lineup

[Puckbuster]

3 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

He does have 13 points in his last 10 GP (6 G and 7 A) and he now has 119 points in his last 116 GP (44 G and 75 A...about 31 G and 53 A per 82 GP).  Prior to the 2021-22 season we would've damned near sold our souls for Bratt to ever become that productive.

I'm not saying he's absolutely flawless (and yes he can seem almost indifferent at times on the ice), but how many guys really are?  I hear what you're saying about Nico being a measuring stick, but the Devils committed to him before he fully blossomed...I was fully on-board with taking that risk at that time (as I was with Jack), but the Devils DID take a pretty sizable risk...and if anything, I don't think we EVER saw Nico putting up this kind of offense (and I love that he is, because I've always been firmly in his corner, even when I was worried about him potentially topping out as a "rich man's Zajac", or being able to stay healthy).  Bratt's cementing himself as a PPG player, which Jack and Nico had not yet become when they signed; they rolled the dice on long-term commitments with nice money right away, and the Devils rolled the dice on the two of them becoming bargains fairly quickly...this obviously paid off insanely well for the Devils, as barring injury or early decline, impossible to think that Jack and Nico don't continue to outperform their contracts by a significant margin.  But hard to hit organizational home runs like that in every contractual at-bat.

The other issue is that taking a look around the league at likely comps, it's going to be hard for Bratt's camp to accept what Nico's making (or less).  Bratt's probably going to be looking for $8.5 - 9 million AAV, 6 years minimum.  I'm not going to pretend that signing him to that kind of coin would thrill me, but who do you replace with him?  Even with the Devils appearing to have firmly turned the corner into being a competitive team for what should be several years, are high-profile UFAs any more eager to come to NJ?  Assuming no, then you may have to find a trade partner to replace his production, which will cost assets, and the organizational depth really isn't there for that.  The cap will also be going up, and the fact that your centers are clearly underpaid helps to offset Bratt likely getting what would be a "market value" contract, much as we may not love what a market value contract for Bratt would cost.

I'm not dead-set against the idea of the Devils moving on from him, as much as I don't see a better alternative scenario that makes the Devils a better team without him and/or doesn't thin out their prospect and asset in trying to replace his production.  

I don’t think it’s a good idea to let Bratt go.  Bratt took less money over the past two years and is a PPG player.  The Devils will have to pay him for that and to keep him through his prime years.  It will be very difficult and costly to replace that is even equivalent.

Sometimes I wonder what the expectations are.  All players go through lulls and it seems that we hold our players to a much higher standard.  It’s not like the are making McDavid or Matthews money.

[mfitz804]

3 minutes ago, Puckbuster said:

I don’t think it’s a good idea to let Bratt go.  Bratt took less money over the past two years and is a PPG player.  The Devils will have to pay him for that and to keep him through his prime years.  It will be very difficult and costly to replace that is even equivalent.

Sometimes I wonder what the expectations are.  All players go through lulls and it seems that we hold our players to a much higher standard.  It’s not like the are making McDavid or Matthews money.

I agree, it is kind of comical how negative people are about him while he is one point shy of PPG. You don’t look to get rid of a PPG winger, if anything we need another. 

It’s like people forget we are only like 4 years removed from Kyle Palmieri leading the team in scoring with 50 points. Anyone want to go back to that? 

[Puckbuster]

5 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

I agree, it is kind of comical how negative people are about him while he is one point shy of PPG. You don’t look to get rid of a PPG winger, if anything we need another. 

It’s like people forget we are only like 4 years removed from Kyle Palmieri leading the team in scoring with 50 points. Anyone want to go back to that? 

Those were some tough years.  But, you are right, we need to add wingers and not lose the best one we have.

[SterioDesign]

I mean lol we know this was once again just a "in the moment emotional and irrational statement" and nothing more. We know the drill by now. 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

16 minutes ago, Puckbuster said:

I don’t think it’s a good idea to let Bratt go.  Bratt took less money over the past two years and is a PPG player.  The Devils will have to pay him for that and to keep him through his prime years.  It will be very difficult and costly to replace that is even equivalent.

Sometimes I wonder what the expectations are.  All players go through lulls and it seems that we hold our players to a much higher standard.  It’s not like the are making McDavid or Matthews money.

Didn't say that I thought it was a good idea to let him go.  If anything I pointed out the reasons why trying to move on from him would be difficult.    

The big question is what is your "best and final" offer?  Are you willing to go a full 8 years, if that's what he wants?  And if so, at what AAV do you top out?  Having pointed out how the circumstances re:  both Nico and Jack's extensions and how different they were, I know I will very likely have to offer Bratt more than what those two are making, but I wouldn't really want to go beyond $9 million per...and I'm not even terribly comfortable with that number, but I'd surprised if he took much less.  I'd feel better with something in the low-$8 million range.  Hopefully he and his agent see that a little less money for him (but still making plenty) helps the team have some flexibility, but nothing that I've seen to date suggests that.  

[EdgeControl]

captain clutch is scoring some big timely goals this year...  Im glad my son asked for his adidas jersey with the C on it for christmas  I was expecting him to ask for hughes

[mfitz804]

7 minutes ago, Puckbuster said:

Those were some tough years.  But, you are right, we need to add wingers and not lose the best one we have.

I actually didn’t give him enough credit, he is now a point above PPG, on pace for 32g-52a-84p. All of which will be career highs. 

It’s like Jack’s great year and super team-friendly contract have made some people forget that 32 goals and 84 points is great production. Especially from a 6th round pick, most of whom don’t even make the NHL. 

Let me add this as well, Bratt is currently 32nd in the league in scoring. How many guys in the top 32 in scoring make less than Bratt? Three. One is Tage Thompson, he is making $7.1m next year. One is RNH, who right now looks like one of the best contracts in hockey locked in long term at $5,125,000. And one is Alex Tuch, who is also having a career year. That’s it. there are a few guys making just above what Bratt is making, and a ton of guys making $8-9m and more. 

Expand that to the top 50 and there’s only another 5 guys making less than Jesper, and one is Stutzle who is making $8,350,000 next year after his ELC expires. Stutzle and Bratt have very similar stats this year. 

Anyone arguing that Bratt isn’t “worth it”, 41 of the top 50 scorers in the NHL are making more than him. You aren’t correct. 

 

[Puckbuster]

54 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Didn't say that I thought it was a good idea to let him go.  If anything I pointed out the reasons why trying to move on from him would be difficult.    

The big question is what is your "best and final" offer?  Are you willing to go a full 8 years, if that's what he wants?  And if so, at what AAV do you top out?  Having pointed out how the circumstances re:  both Nico and Jack's extensions and how different they were, I know I will very likely have to offer Bratt more than what those two are making, but I wouldn't really want to go beyond $9 million per...and I'm not even terribly comfortable with that number, but I'd surprised if he took much less.  I'd feel better with something in the low-$8 million range.  Hopefully he and his agent see that a little less money for him (but still making plenty) helps the team have some flexibility, but nothing that I've seen to date suggests that.  

Sorry, I wasn’t implying that you did.  I agree with your post and failed miserably to do so.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

24 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

I actually didn’t give him enough credit, he is now a point above PPG, on pace for 32g-52a-84p. All of which will be career highs. 

Check out these numbers over their last 82 NHL games:

Nico:  34 G, 47 A, 81 Pts

Bratt:  30 G, 50 A, 80 Pts

Jack:  50 G, 54 A, 104 Pts (and this with trying to carry Haula and Tatar at the moment)

I know scoring in the NHL is up, but damn, three guys combining for nearly 270 points...I'll take it.

[Chimaira_Devil_#9]

3 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

The goaltending really did the job on this trip:

Blackwood:  2 GP, 77 Shots, 71 Saves, .921 save%

Vanacek:  3 GP, 93 Shots, 85 Saves, .914 save%

And they faced a LOT of high danger chances...those save%s are really damned good, considering the onslaughts both faced.  The goaltending overall has been SOOOOOOO much better than last year...I know that I'm stating the obvious, but it's nice to not only get competent goaltending, but above and beyond, to the tune of "Stealing games and points".

Agree that good teams find ways to pick up some points when they don't have it, but I gotta admit, as great as it was to pick up 90% of the points on a tough trip (those West Coast jaunts are never a joy), the Devils often did not look great doing it.  You can get away with that over short samples, but they can't continue to get pounded like this and not expect a bad slump...not that I'm concerned about the Devils missing the playoffs (I think that absolutely is NOT going to happen), just that they've been up and down despite going 7-1-2 in their last 10 games.  They REALLY need Marino back desperately.  I also think Fitz need to explore a trade to rent a veteran upgrade over Smith.  I like some of what I've seen out of Okhotiuk but not sure if he's ready enough.  Bahl I've pretty much given up on...he had a hell of an opportunity to stake a claim to a spot and just didn't impress.  He'll be 23 in June...starting to kinda get late for him to stick. 

100%,  good teams also do is actually play like a good team lol. So I am hoping the Devil's figure out how to be consistent down the stretch to hopefully be in form when it matters the most. 

Marino really is a difference maker, which is not something I was expecting when we acquired him.

Upgrading Smith really doesn't seem like it would be too difficult. Someone like Luke Schenn from Vancouver with cup experience could be a nice addition. Although his Advanced Stats aren't great and that seems to be something the Devil's front office focus on.