GDT - Round 4 - JUST WIN - NYR at Devils 4/18 - 3pm MSG+

[MadDog2020]

6 minutes ago, Jerrydevil said:

I don't think it was a fluke, it was more like a last hurrah. That was a very good hockey team. I know it had a decent power play and great penalty killing, two things that seem so out of reach right now!

Yeah that team had over 100 points in the regular season. That team wasn’t a fluke. That was a good hockey team that was on it’s last legs.

Edited April 19, 2021 by MadDog2020

[Jerrydevil]

Just now, MadDog2020 said:

Yeah that team had over 100 points in the regular season. That team wasn’t a fluke. That was a good hockey team that was on it’s last legs.

We were loving Lou for getting Kovalchuk back then. We might have won the whole thing if he was healthy for the Kings series.

[MadDog2020]

5 minutes ago, Jerrydevil said:

We were loving Lou for getting Kovalchuk back then. We might have won the whole thing if he was healthy for the Kings series.

Also if Kovalchuk and Mark Fayne didn’t hit posts....😫🤮

[Jerrydevil]

3 minutes ago, MadDog2020 said:

Yeah that team had over 100 points in the regular season. That team wasn’t a fluke. That was a good hockey team that was on it’s last legs.

I initially called them very good, but that was a stretch. They were good and got such a boost from the Game 7 win in Florida. Yes, the emergence of Gionta-Carter-Bernier, too. Really good fourth line. 

[Jerrydevil]

1 minute ago, MadDog2020 said:

Also if Kovalchuk and Mark Fayne didn’t hit posts....😫🤮

Speaking of Fayne, look at that ragtag blue line that came close to getting their names on the Stanley Cup. Peter Harrold!

[Jerrydevil]

I hate to be Mr. Remember When, but remember when we could roll out Elias, Kovalchuk and Parise in the shootout? Good times.

[Devil Dan 56]

23 minutes ago, Jerrydevil said:

Speaking of Fayne, look at that ragtag blue line that came close to getting their names on the Stanley Cup. Peter Harrold!

The famed No-Name defense. They really rallied around the idea that they couldn't win because they didn't have a star on the back end that year. They seemed to have a lot of pride in that

[MadDog2020]

29 minutes ago, Jerrydevil said:

Speaking of Fayne, look at that ragtag blue line that came close to getting their names on the Stanley Cup. Peter Harrold!

Right? Harrold, Salvador, Fayne, Zidlicky, Volchenkov, a rookie Larsson.... not overly terrible, but certainly not a HOF’er in the bunch lol. 

Edited April 19, 2021 by MadDog2020

[mfitz804]

When I say “fluke”, it took a bunch of things lining up the right way to happen, Parise had a nice season following surgery, Kovy had his best year as a Devil by far, Clarkson had a career year, Zubrus had his best in a while, 4th line exceeded expectations,  defense was no-names but worked, Brodeur was on his last legs and we got 17 wins from his backup, etc. 

They hadn’t won a playoff series for four years before that, went to the finals, and then were crap for years thereafter. To me, that’s a fluke. 

[Jerrydevil]

Just now, mfitz804 said:

When I say “fluke”, it took a bunch of things lining up the right way to happen, Parise had a nice season following surgery, Kovy had his best year as a Devil by far, Clarkson had a career year, Zubrus had his best in a while, 4th line exceeded expectations,  defense was no-names but worked, Brodeur was on his last legs and we got 17 wins from his backup, etc. 

They hadn’t won a playoff series for four years before that, went to the finals, and then were crap for years thereafter. To me, that’s a fluke. 

I get your meaning. By the way, wasn't the second half of 2011 fun? It's about as much fun as you can have without making the playoffs. For a non-playoff year, that was memorable. Amazing, really.

[MadDog2020]

5 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

They hadn’t won a playoff series for four years before that, went to the finals, and then were crap for years thereafter. To me, that’s a fluke. 

Well there are obviously reasons why they were crap after 2012, not the least of which being the Parise and Kovalchuk departures, and Marty being old. But losing those two guys set the franchise back years. Had one or both stuck around, who knows what would’ve happened in the ensuing years..... Sadly, we’ll never know.

Edited April 19, 2021 by MadDog2020

[EdgeControl]

Thank goodness kovy bailed. But we did nothing with the money saved...nothing but cap space on a bad roster

[mfitz804]

1 minute ago, EdgeControl said:

Thank goodness kovy bailed. But we did nothing with the money saved...nothing but cap space on a bad roster

Which is why I don’t ascribe to that. The Kovy contract would’ve ended up being bad but it wouldn’t have affected us in the slightest. Maybe he would have been good enough to help us squeak into the playoffs a couple times, make us more attractive to free agents, etc.

Saving the money did nothing for us.

 

[mfitz804]

9 minutes ago, MadDog2020 said:

Well there are obviously reasons why they were crap after 2012, not the least of which being the Parise and Kovalchuk departures, and Marty being old. But losing those two guys set the franchise back years. Had one or both stuck around, who knows what would’ve happened in the ensuing years..... Sadly, we’ll never know.

Perhaps “outlier” would have been a better word than fluke. There are reasons for it, as you said.

It’s certainly not like it was the late 90’s to early 2000’s when we were in the mix every year. 

[lazer]

Then come in the new owners and its been a sh!t show ever since.

[DevsMan84]

12 minutes ago, lazer said:

Then come in the new owners and its been a sh!t show ever since.

Owners came in 1 offseason removed from Parise bolting and around the same time Kovy and Clarkson bolted.  Those are our 3 top goal scorers from 2011-12 season (who accounted for 43% of the teams goals that same year) who left before the first game of the current ownership.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

31 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

When I say “fluke”, it took a bunch of things lining up the right way to happen, Parise had a nice season following surgery, Kovy had his best year as a Devil by far, Clarkson had a career year, Zubrus had his best in a while, 4th line exceeded expectations,  defense was no-names but worked, Brodeur was on his last legs and we got 17 wins from his backup, etc. 

They hadn’t won a playoff series for four years before that, went to the finals, and then were crap for years thereafter. To me, that’s a fluke. 

Team also went 12-4 in shootouts.  Kovy (who was only a 25% shooter or so prior) suddenly became an automatic in them.  The season before was obviously a weird one...hard to think that if MacLean hadn't been given as much of a leash as he was (or if a remotely competent HC had been there from the start), that the 2010-11 Devils wouldn't have gotten in.  They were too talented to turn in such a mess of a first half.  

Yeah, the 2011-12 bunch was a fun team for sure (especially since they really weren't expected to go that deep), but yeah, you had a lot of things break right.  Lots of contributions from unexpected sources (Clarkson with 30 G, an aging Sykora with 21 G, Ponikarovsky with 18 points in 33 GP, rookie Henrique putting up 34 points in a 35 game stretch, etc.

Of course, two key core pieces were aging in Marty and Elias...the best of what Marty had left was used up over his last 50 or so GP of 2011-12.  And then Parise left, Kovy followed...

2 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

Owners came in 1 offseason removed from Parise bolting and around the same time Kovy and Clarkson bolted.  Those are our 3 top goal scorers from 2011-12 season (who accounted for 43% of the teams goals that same year) who left before the first game of the current ownership.

Also fair to point out that even if some fans want to blame current ownership for where the Devils are, they should at least realize if VBK had stuck around, it would been a sh!tshow regardless...he couldn't afford to own the team any longer. 

On another note, at times some have accused the owners of cheaping out, but it really seems to me that Shero was trying to set himself up for flexibility and a possible "We're ready, let's do this!" spending spree that never came to be, due to 2019-20 coming apart (I think re-signing Hall was part of the long-term plan at one point, before all went to sh!t).  Fitz has inherited that flexibility and managed to create even more...if there's a big "perfect move" that he wants to make that costs a lot of coin and the owners overrule or block him, then I'll start to wonder what the hell is going on.  Ditto if with all of this cap space, if there's any issues signing RFAs like Hughes, Smith and others as their times come up.  Not saying you just give them tons of money and term for the sake of it, but there is going to be money under the cap to get them all signed without much difficulty.  This is most definitely not a situation where multiple someones will have to be moved for draft picks, just to get money off the books.  

[titans04]

1 hour ago, Jerrydevil said:

I hate to be Mr. Remember When, but remember when we could roll out Elias, Kovalchuk and Parise in the shootout? Good times.

[Henry Killinger]

I know my thinking is old-school, but I am an old fool, so....

This team desperately needs a couple big, bruising, physical stay-at-home d-men.

D-men that aren't afraid to take a hit to make a play.

D-men that make other players think twice before taking liberties with our smaller forwards.

Sadly, don't see it happening.

[DevsMan84]

2 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Team also went 12-4 in shootouts.  Kovy (who was only a 25% shooter or so prior) suddenly became an automatic in them.  The season before was obviously a weird one...hard to think that if MacLean hadn't been given as much of a leash as he was (or if a remotely competent HC had been there from the start), that the 2010-11 Devils wouldn't have gotten in.  They were too talented to turn in such a mess of a first half.  

Yeah, the 2011-12 bunch was a fun team for sure (especially since they really weren't expected to go that deep), but yeah, you had a lot of things break right.  Lots of contributions from unexpected sources (Clarkson with 30 G, an aging Sykora with 21 G, Ponikarovsky with 18 points in 33 GP, rookie Henrique putting up 34 points in a 35 game stretch, etc.

Of course, two key core pieces were aging in Marty and Elias...the best of what Marty had left was used up over his last 50 or so GP of 2011-12.  And then Parise left, Kovy followed...

Also fair to point out that even if some fans want to blame current ownership for where the Devils are, they should at least realize if VBK had stuck around, it would been a sh!tshow regardless...he couldn't afford to own the team any longer. 

On another note, at times some have accused the owners of cheaping out, but it really seems to me that Shero was trying to set himself up for flexibility and a possible "We're ready, let's do this!" spending spree that never came to be, due to 2019-20 coming apart (I think re-signing Hall was part of the long-term plan at one point, before all went to sh!t).  Fitz has inherited that flexibility and managed to create even more...if there's a big "perfect move" that he wants to make that costs a lot of coin and the owners overrule or block him, then I'll start to wonder what the hell is going on.  Ditto if with all of this cap space, if there's any issues signing RFAs like Hughes, Smith and others as their times come up.  Not saying you just give them tons of money and term for the sake of it, but there is going to be money under the cap to get them all signed without much difficulty.  This is most definitely not a situation where multiple someones will have to be moved for draft picks, just to get money off the books.  

How often do these big "perfect moves" come along?  I guess Hall for Larsson is one, but 1) we are the same spot now as we were then 2) we are now sans Hall and 3) that is now 5 years ago.  Sometimes you have to take a gamble and part with item of value on our end, which is what the Devils seemingly unwilling to do.  Trading away picks and marginal players for other players cap casualties and/or over-the-hill vets is not going to do it anymore.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

2 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

How often do these big "perfect moves" come along?  I guess Hall for Larsson is one, but 1) we are the same spot now as we were then 2) we are now sans Hall and 3) that is now 5 years ago.  Sometimes you have to take a gamble and part with item of value on our end, which is what the Devils seemingly unwilling to do.  Trading away picks and marginal players for other players cap casualties and/or over-the-hill vets is not going to do it anymore.

By "big perfect move", I don't mean a fleece-by-trade...just a move that obviously fits a glaring need, but might cost significant money (along with some assets, if it's a trade for an existing pricey contract).  My point was the Devils absolutely have the kind of cap space to make a splashy move like that (of course, who knows how other players are currently viewing the Devils brand at the moment).  

But I'm with you, re:  picks and/or marginal prospect for Johnsson-types...I get that there's always moves like that to be made, and occasionally they pay off (Palms), but I'm really hoping that we're not in for another summer of that.  

[DevsMan84]

35 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

By "big perfect move", I don't mean a fleece-by-trade...just a move that obviously fits a glaring need, but might cost significant money (along with some assets, if it's a trade for an existing pricey contract).  My point was the Devils absolutely have the kind of cap space to make a splashy move like that (of course, who knows how other players are currently viewing the Devils brand at the moment).  

But I'm with you, re:  picks and/or marginal prospect for Johnsson-types...I get that there's always moves like that to be made, and occasionally they pay off (Palms), but I'm really hoping that we're not in for another summer of that.  

I have a sneaking suspicion that is where we are heading, just based on past history.  This is now the 3rd (or is it 4th?) summer we are going into where we are being fed yet again the "weaponizing cap space" line. 

I don't think the owners are outright cheap, but they are the kind who are looking at everything in the lens of getting the best ROI.  Unfortunately, if that means we have to give up something of value to make a big splash, I think they would hesitate to do that.  Their past history just seems to be that they are very adverse to taking big risks.

[SterioDesign]

51 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

How often do these big "perfect moves" come along?  I guess Hall for Larsson is one, but 1) we are the same spot now as we were then 2) we are now sans Hall and 3) that is now 5 years ago.  Sometimes you have to take a gamble and part with item of value on our end, which is what the Devils seemingly unwilling to do.  Trading away picks and marginal players for other players cap casualties and/or over-the-hill vets is not going to do it anymore.

I mean, it's kind of unfair and out of context to say that we're at the same spot now we were then. 

It's such a completely different situations. Then we had the oldest roster in the NHL and no prospects, not able to get it done and it would only get worst with time. If we'd do a trade, we'd trade something we needed just for something we needed more. It was just a lateral move cause we had nothing else.

Now we have the youngest roster in the NHL, which with at least young serviable players, doing pretty good for such a young group. It's obvious to see that we will get better. Plus we have plenty of picks / prospects with potential that we can start thinking of package deal for trades.

[DevsMan84]

1 minute ago, SterioDesign said:

I mean, it's kind of unfair and out of context to say that we're at the same spot now we were then. 

It's such a completely different situations. Then we had the oldest roster in the NHL and no prospects, not able to get it done and it would only get worst with time. If we'd do a trade, we'd trade something we needed just for something we needed more. It was just a lateral move cause we had nothing else.

Now we have the youngest roster in the NHL, which with at least young serviable players, doing pretty good for such a young group. It's obvious to see that we will get better. Plus we have plenty of picks / prospects with potential that we can start thinking of package deal for trades.

We were picking 6th overall in 2015.   We look to be picking around the same spot, possibly higher this one.

We went from the oldest roster to the youngest roster.  Is there hope?  Yeah I think there is more hope now than before, but we are still terrible.  We are still banking on a lot of what-ifs so I am not going to do a victory dance right now.  What if guys like Foote, Bahl, Mercer, Hotlz do not work out?  What if guys like Kuokkanen and Sharanogvich do not improve?  What if Bratt never breaks out of 35ish points a season?  It's a lot of what ifs.  We are still amongst the worst in the league and are banking on a lot of players ending up as good as they're projecting to be.

As for the bolded, if it is for trades like a 3rd rounder for a guy like Siegenthaler, or marginal players like Anderson and picks for Andreas Johnsson then don't blame me if I am not as excited as I should be.

[SterioDesign]

2 minutes ago, DevsMan84 said:

We were picking 6th overall in 2015.   We look to be picking around the same spot, possibly higher this one.

We went from the oldest roster to the youngest roster.  Is there hope?  Yeah I think there is more hope now than before, but we are still terrible.  We are still banking on a lot of what-ifs so I am not going to do a victory dance right now.  What if guys like Foote, Bahl, Mercer, Hotlz do not work out?  What if guys like Kuokkanen and Sharanogvich do not improve?  What if Bratt never breaks out of 35ish points a season?  It's a lot of what ifs.  We are still amongst the worst in the league and are banking on a lot of players ending up as good as they're projecting to be.

As for the bolded, if it is for trades like a 3rd rounder for a guy like Siegenthaler, or marginal players like Anderson and picks for Andreas Johnsson then don't blame me if I am not as excited as I should be.

We're not that terrible when "again" that you look into context. We lost like 90% of our games by 1 goal when we had a roster full of rookies who all did pretty well and will get better. Vets that didnt do much and our best player missing the whole season. How many of those games could have went our way with a little extra? Would make a huge difference. Just looking purely at results is such a bad way to look at this.

That's not what i suggested with the trades. We now have guys that we like but not untouchable. Trading a guy like Zacha or McLeod now when we already have hughes and Nico is not the same then back then having to trade Henrique who was our top center to get defensive help. We're a lot deeper than we were.