Triumph Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 (edited) this is a chicken or egg argument, and using +/- to do what you are doing is ridiculous. brodeur has played much better these last 3 games, but he stunk in the first two weeks of the season. scoring chances happen; it's hockey, and he had to get more of them than he did. now that he is, it seems the defense is playing worse. i wouldn't be surprised if clarkson hasn't even been on the ice for a goal for yet. it's impossible to be a + if that's the case. Edited October 25, 2010 by Triumph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otty Ott-Sauce Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Listen if you don't think this team is winning the KovalCup then go be a fvcking Rags fans...if and WHEN we make the playoffs its a whole new season and this means one thing: KOVALCUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxpower Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 this is a chicken or egg argument, and using +/- to do what you are doing is ridiculous. brodeur has played much better these last 3 games, but he stunk in the first two weeks of the season. scoring chances happen; it's hockey, and he had to get more of them than he did. now that he is, it seems the defense is playing worse. i wouldn't be surprised if clarkson hasn't even been on the ice for a goal for yet. it's impossible to be a + if that's the case. he hasn't. still, neither have a few players and they're not lugging a -8. some of +/- is luck, some of it is an indictator of your defensive play versus the other players on the team. I don't like it as a comparison between different teams, at all (although Joe Thornton, I have no earthly idea what he's doing out there to be a -9), but I think it's okay to use inside one team. and are Zajac and White being on top really that much of a surprise? and by how the bottom guys have played, is that a surprise either? the only one that seems out of line is Zubrus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 max: without zone start, quality of competition, quality of teammates, and goalie save percentage while on ice, +/- is merely pissing into the wind. arnott has been garbage defensively, that i will agree with, and maclean has noticed that - arnott's gotten little ice time in the last few games. i'd be shocked if the save percentage while on ice is higher than .850 for tallinder (while it has to be like .930 for white and taormina). this isn't to say tallinder's played well, but he's been hooked with a lot of minuses he doesn't exactly deserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derlique Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 max: without zone start, quality of competition, quality of teammates, and goalie save percentage while on ice, +/- is merely pissing into the wind. arnott has been garbage defensively, that i will agree with, and maclean has noticed that - arnott's gotten little ice time in the last few games. i'd be shocked if the save percentage while on ice is higher than .850 for tallinder (while it has to be like .930 for white and taormina). this isn't to say tallinder's played well, but he's been hooked with a lot of minuses he doesn't exactly deserve. the problem with the whole sp% thing is that quality of chances isn't included. I can directly remember 2 or 3 Tallinder fvck ups that have directly resulted in goals. Whereas White doesn't really have any.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devils731 Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Del Zotto had more PP ice time than Clarkson and Arnott had even strength ice time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zap Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 You sure have stats for everything. I wonder this though: How would you rate Devils' "Heart" so far this season, on a scale 0-100, where 100 is total heart and dedication? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxpower Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 max: without zone start, quality of competition, quality of teammates, and goalie save percentage while on ice, +/- is merely pissing into the wind. arnott has been garbage defensively, that i will agree with, and maclean has noticed that - arnott's gotten little ice time in the last few games. i'd be shocked if the save percentage while on ice is higher than .850 for tallinder (while it has to be like .930 for white and taormina). this isn't to say tallinder's played well, but he's been hooked with a lot of minuses he doesn't exactly deserve. well, wouldn't it make sense that the sv% would be lower when Tallinder was on the ice, than when White was on the ice? probably not that big of a spread (and he's at .906 now, so it's probably not that low with anyone), but you know what I mean. when you have bad players out there, you're more likely to give up a goal. whether it be of the mundane (which was the problem earlier in the season) or of the unstoppable variety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zubie#8 Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 (edited) I just thought of a great set of lines Kovalchuk Zajac Zubrus - Sniper, good center, beast along the boards Parise Josefson Langenbrunner - Goal scorer, promising rookie center, good along the boards Elias Arnott Clarkson - Sniper, good center, good along the boards (hopefully) Mair Pelley Sestito BOOM i think that will work Edited October 25, 2010 by Zubie#8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 ^^ This team looks great on paper, but that's all there is to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimaira_Devil_#9 Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 I am totally done with Langs as the Captain! i am in no way attributing the current levels of performance soley to his leadership, but i am sick and tired of hearing the same old BS after every game. I was just reading on fire and ice about the 4 consecutive minor penalties, two of wich were Langs, and the fact that Langs had 3 of them in the game and lead the Devils in PM. What does he come out and say “We took a few too many penalties that kind of hurt our momentum a littel bit, but we did a good job of killing off most of them,” Langenbrunner said. “We stuck with it. It’s kind of been our problem so far that something negative happens in the game and we turn down in the other direction. Tonight it seemed to push us in the right direction and that is encouraging. You saw guys playing a lot more for each other tonight.” Now normally i am not to bothered about what he says, there are only so many things you can say in any given situation. But here i would have wanted to see him owning up. Not "we", "I" if I had taken that many penatlies in a game playing for my Rec team I would have been saying sorry and its something I needed to correct. The captain should be setting the example! Its all about accountability, and if the captain isn't even going to stand there and say "hey i made a mistake" why is anyone else going to bother? Its possible he did say something to that effect that wasn't quoted in what i read, but i dont see it as a posative. The Older guys on this team really need to get their a$$es in gear and get going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackchi Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Its just boggling my mind people are blaming kovy. Our defense sucks for the last two years how about that. This team is defnitey missing volchenkov and salvador maybe even fraser since we have magnan and corrente out there. No kovy this seaosn means we would have only nine goals since he has six points. What a stupid statement by you guys. Your insight is correct. This team has had some big problems that precede Kovy and obviously have not been rectified yet! We all talk about the changes that have been made and we put blame on this new trade or that move etc. We should tale a look at what hasn't been changed now. I am a big Elias fan but he has not been right for a long time. Langs is also getting crotchety. There is something going on with those two for sure that is having a neg impact. I really think it is time for a change for our teams sake and probably for them too. I think they need a fresh start somewhere else because they just cant muster up their old selves in this organization. I would hate to see them leave but its like a marriage gone sour. We had great times but they cannot be maintained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Once again, mmm hmm. NHL.com has us 14th in the league in SA/G, which is in no way terrible. That's not good either, that's decidedly mediocre...actually a few spots higher than I would have thought, but we've also had a lot of garbage-time hockey (Caps, Bruins, Sabres) where other teams haven't needed to pressure our D for more than half the game. Plus the quality of chances is still high, that's something a stat won't quantify but watching the games does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 (edited) Your insight is correct. This team has had some big problems that precede Kovy and obviously have not been rectified yet! We all talk about the changes that have been made and we put blame on this new trade or that move etc. We should tale a look at what hasn't been changed now. I am a big Elias fan but he has not been right for a long time. Langs is also getting crotchety. There is something going on with those two for sure that is having a neg impact. I really think it is time for a change for our teams sake and probably for them too. I think they need a fresh start somewhere else because they just cant muster up their old selves in this organization. I would hate to see them leave but its like a marriage gone sour. We had great times but they cannot be maintained. I actually wanted this scenario explored in the off-season, where one or both of these players were moved...I don't have a bad word to say about either of them, and they've had impressive careers overall as Devils, but that doesn't mean they should stay here forever...2003 is soon to be eight years in the rearview mirror. Things can and do have a way of going stale after a while. And let's face it, one look at the numbers since Elias signed his big deal shows that he's been a bit of a disappointment...outside of one big first half in '08-'09, the results have been pretty much "meh" for him...I'm surprised he hasn't suffered a neck injury from all of the times he's looked up at the ceiling after yet another missed scoring opportunity. Langs is a little more complicated, in that he's actually enjoyed his most productive offensive seasons over the last two years, but when someone admits that he had trouble getting excited for the playoffs (and let's face it, as fans we tend to read more into player quotes than what they actually intend...we tend to regard these quotes as being much deeper than the player who actually uttered them), I think it might be time to show that guy the door. I think this group deserves to get the 20-game mark or so relatively intact, but if they continue to look this bad, then Lou has to start exploring all options...even the drastic ones. Edited October 25, 2010 by Colorado Rockies 1976 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDevs4978 Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 (edited) Now normally i am not to bothered about what he says, there are only so many things you can say in any given situation. But here i would have wanted to see him owning up. Not "we", "I" if I had taken that many penatlies in a game playing for my Rec team I would have been saying sorry and its something I needed to correct. The captain should be setting the example! Its all about accountability, and if the captain isn't even going to stand there and say "hey i made a mistake" why is anyone else going to bother? Careful, DinLA will scold you for scapegoating and overtime will point out how everyone sucks too (which they do, but of course I agree with your point here). Why should the older guys get going when none of them have been moved yet, and in a lot of cases can't be traded without permission? The scary part about Langs statistically is he has ZERO non empty-net goals in his last 21 games dating to last year (only that stupid empty-net goal in the final game of the regular season). A few more games and I might actually have more confidence in Zharkov scoring I think this group deserves to get the 20-game mark or so relatively intact, but if they continue to look this bad, then Lou has to start exploring all options...even the drastic ones. Normally I'd agree with the 20-game mark but d-day probably has to come sooner than that this year, for two reasons. One, this is a continuation of the crap that was going on the second half of last year. And two, this road trip could be a Met-like West Coast swing disaster. There's no reason for me to think we'll be any better than 3-11-1 after the next five road games plus the Ranger 'home' game which will no doubt be 50% Ranger fans if we continue to stink. Edited October 25, 2010 by NJDevs4978 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimaira_Devil_#9 Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Careful, DinLA will scold you for scapegoating and overtime will point out how everyone sucks too (which they do, but of course I agree with your point here). Why should the older guys get going when none of them have been moved yet, and in a lot of cases can't be traded without permission? The scary part about Langs statistically is he has ZERO non empty-net goals in his last 21 games dating to last year (only that stupid empty-net goal in the final game of the regular season). A few more games and I might actually have more confidence in Zharkov scoring I think i threw a bit of a disclaimer in there at the start of my little rant to cover those bases. In an ideal world they do it for the love of the game , and the fact that they are profesionals. It makes me slightly sick we are having to question our own players motivation, especially after how the last 3-4 years have gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Rockies 1976 Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Normally I'd agree with the 20-game mark but d-day probably has to come sooner than that this year, for two reasons. One, this is a continuation of the crap that was going on the second half of last year. And two, this road trip could be a Met-like West Coast swing disaster. There's no reason for me to think we'll be any better than 3-11-1 after the next five road games plus the Ranger 'home' game which will no doubt be 50% Ranger fans if we continue to stink. If they come back 3-11-1 I'd have to think some kind of move is coming. What's most disconcerting is that the Devils would look like they were two steps slower against some teams. Now they look like that against almost everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overtime98 Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 I notice Langenbrunner jumping in to defend teammates at many different times during that game...... One where I believe avery went after magnan and Langenbrunner stepped in to protect his players. The 3 penalties on langebrunner were SOFT and BULLsh!t penalties, NOT his fault.... We win as a team and lose as a team. Where was parise last night? Langenbrunner and Parise have the same amount of points. 4. Parise is not ready to be captain. Parise has NO true playoff Experience! Ask Parise what it takes and what its like to play in the 3rd and 4th round, he has no clue! Parise will be captain but not yet. This Devils team is offensively challenged right now and that goes for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarpathianForest Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 I don't drink but this season is making me reconsider, sorry about the add in the beginning: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimaira_Devil_#9 Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 I notice Langenbrunner jumping in to defend teammates at many different times during that game...... One where I believe avery went after magnan and Langenbrunner stepped in to protect his players. The 3 penalties on langebrunner were SOFT and BULLsh!t penalties, NOT his fault.... We win as a team and lose as a team. Where was parise last night? Langenbrunner and Parise have the same amount of points. 4. Parise is not ready to be captain. Parise has NO true playoff Experience! Ask Parise what it takes and what its like to play in the 3rd and 4th round, he has no clue! Parise will be captain but not yet. This Devils team is offensively challenged right now and that goes for everyone. These excuses just don’t hold water anymore. Langs looks and sounds un interested in the whole thing. Considering he is in a contract year there should be a fire under his a$$. On the penalties, who cares if they were soft. The guy is stating it has been a problem for the team, when you are the biggest contributing factor in that problem, you should hold you hands up, state that its not acceptable and you realise that something needs to be done. Make it clear that if its not acceptable for you to do it, then no one else should and show that you realise your own failings and will work on it. Not go, well everyone else is doing it, we will get through it, brush it under carpet. That helps no one, he should be trying to take the weaknesses and turn them into strengths. Its like every week he mouths to the press, we learned our lesson things need to change and then swans off and comes up with the same BS on and off the ice after the next game. its just not on. As for Parise, he was on the ice, not in the penalty box. Zach comes to play every shift, he is busting his a$$ on every play, and when he speaks after games and when you see him on the ice you feel that he is actually disappointed and that he is genuinely frustrated. Not just mouthing the same old same old. I think I saw a few weeks ago Parise said he knew he personally wasn’t performing and people expected more of him and he would have to improve. That’s what Langs needs to be saying after a performance like that. Experience isn't everything, ask Sindney Crosby or Jonathan Towes, sometimes sheer effort, belief and determination win out over experience. I agree with the win as a team and lose as a teamstatement, but someone on the team has to kick the team in the a$$ and set an example as to what is and isn't acceptable. And it would seem like we don’t have anyone doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellOnICE Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Zach should have had the C before the season started, harder to make the move now - especially in the string of losses. Bottom line is our Defense is HORRID. Spare me the stats Tri, they can't protect, move, or make smart plays in the O or D zone. That's the biggest problem. We know Clarkson sucks, Jamie can't do much anymore, Arnott is slow and doesn't put an effort out there, Kovy is by himself, Elias is kind of wandering around out there, Josefson isn't ready yet, Magnan-Corrente are trying to stay above water, Andy Greene is playing without Paul Martin, Hedberg is a moose in headlights, Zach is packing his bags, Dainus is doing all he can, Marty is hot and cold, Taormina is getting better and better, Pelley is a limited-but hardworking warrior, Our fourth-line is personality-less, Volchenkov must have a concussion, and Lou has invested a lot in bad contracts. Sounds good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitico12 Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 You sure have stats for everything. I wonder this though: How would you rate Devils' "Heart" so far this season, on a scale 0-100, where 100 is total heart and dedication? It would be very close to negative numbers if it wasn't for a few guys on the team. Minus PL3's stupidity in Washington, that was about the only heart I've seen on this team thus far... Or, in Johnny Mac's interview last night, it appeared as if he was "teary eyed"...does that count as heart? Zach should have had the C before the season started, harder to make the move now - especially in the string of losses. Bottom line is our Defense is HORRID. Spare me the stats Tri, they can't protect, move, or make smart plays in the O or D zone. That's the biggest problem. We know Clarkson sucks, Jamie can't do much anymore, Arnott is slow and doesn't put an effort out there, Kovy is by himself, Elias is kind of wandering around out there, Josefson isn't ready yet, Magnan-Corrente are trying to stay above water, Andy Greene is playing without Paul Martin, Hedberg is a moose in headlights, Zach is packing his bags, Dainus is doing all he can, Marty is hot and cold, Taormina is getting better and better, Pelley is a limited-but hardworking warrior, Our fourth-line is personality-less, Volchenkov must have a concussion, and Lou has invested a lot in bad contracts. Sounds good. Your breakdown/rant is spot on. We suck and have a group of bus terminal passengers in hockey gear trying to play in the NHL. Thank goodness we won't be forfeiting our first round pick this year... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellOnICE Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Heart Schmeart, we aren't talented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overtime98 Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 These excuses just don’t hold water anymore. Langs looks and sounds un interested in the whole thing. Considering he is in a contract year there should be a fire under his a$$. On the penalties, who cares if they were soft. The guy is stating it has been a problem for the team, when you are the biggest contributing factor in that problem, you should hold you hands up, state that its not acceptable and you realise that something needs to be done. Make it clear that if its not acceptable for you to do it, then no one else should and show that you realise your own failings and will work on it. Not go, well everyone else is doing it, we will get through it, brush it under carpet. That helps no one, he should be trying to take the weaknesses and turn them into strengths. Its like every week he mouths to the press, we learned our lesson things need to change and then swans off and comes up with the same BS on and off the ice after the next game. its just not on. As for Parise, he was on the ice, not in the penalty box. Zach comes to play every shift, he is busting his a$$ on every play, and when he speaks after games and when you see him on the ice you feel that he is actually disappointed and that he is genuinely frustrated. Not just mouthing the same old same old. I think I saw a few weeks ago Parise said he knew he personally wasn’t performing and people expected more of him and he would have to improve. That’s what Langs needs to be saying after a performance like that. Experience isn't everything, ask Sindney Crosby or Jonathan Towes, sometimes sheer effort, belief and determination win out over experience. I agree with the win as a team and lose as a teamstatement, but someone on the team has to kick the team in the a$$ and set an example as to what is and isn't acceptable. And it would seem like we don’t have anyone doing that. Who said I agree with Toews and Crosby getting the C so early in their career as well? "Zach comes to play every shift" But we'll still in last place. Dont be surprised if Zach is not on the Devils next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 Zach may have more energy on the bench than some of the other players on the ice.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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