Insulting fans' intelligence

[Devilsfan118]

Dainius Zubrus doesn't think the Devils need to rebuild

 

I wouldn't expect him to say anything else - considering he's part of the problem.
 

But for those of you (us?) who believe there's a lot of delusion present with this current Devils franchise..

Edited February 19, 2015 by Devilsfan118

[CRASHER]

"Rebuild" has almost become a dirty word in a lot of circles.....and hell if the Devils did rebuild he's probably the first out the door

 

the top 6 forwards certainly needs a kick in the ass no doubt, but it's not a total tear it down scenario, so in that way he has a point

[Zubie#8]

We need a rebuild of the top 9. The rest is fine.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Zubie#8

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

At least Zubrus admits it's on him and that HE needs to do a better job...of course, at this point he probably CAN'T do a better job, but I don't expect him to just say "Well I suck now and it's time to quit." 

 

Lou's quote is a little harder to take on the surface, but he's likely stuck with Zubrus through at least the deadline next season, and he may very well have to keep playing out of necessity...what's Lou going to say?  Zubes is borderline useless at this point, so why even bother to build him up? 

 

Too easy to work oneself up into a frenzy if you take these quotes too literally.  Hoping Lou can find a way to move him, but I just don't see how he does without taking something about as awful back. 

Edited February 19, 2015 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[devilsrule33]

I don't care about the comment about not rebuilding...I care about a few quotes:

 

 

"We've put him in a lot of different spots. We haven't left him in one spot," Lamoriello explained. "Because he is so versatile, he can play just about anywhere. Sometimes it's unfair when you play somebody in so many spots.

"We expect him to use his size and strength and be a physical force out there. Whatever he contributes offensively we just take. He does other things. Sometimes it goes unnoticed."

 

That's great Lou. There's your first mistake along with Oates and Deboer. Zubrus finished last season with 5 goals in his last 47 games. This year it's 2 in 49 games. He's not overly old, but has a ton of miles passing 1200 games this year (incredible accomplishment). They've put him in bad spots that he has no business being in. You have a younger version of Zubrus that you traded for last year (I thought for the purpose of upgrading Zubrus' role). Instead until two games ago, Ruutu was not even given a look above Zubrus on the depth chart.

 

Zubrus is no longer versatile. Lou got one thing right. It is unfair to be playing Zubrus in so many different spots.

 

 

But Zubrus won't use excuses.

"I haven't played well at all. Yeah, they've asked me to do different things, but I know I can do a lot more in terms of providing some offense," Zubrus said. "I feel defensively I can play the same game I played before. I'm the same player that way. But I have to be better offensively and provide some offense. I haven't done that. That part has been frustrating for sure."

 

It's called old age or too many miles. It's okay, but somebody in the organization better fvcking realize it.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

I don't care about the comment about not rebuilding...I care about a few quotes:

 

 

That's great Lou. There's your first mistake along with Oates and Deboer. Zubrus finished last season with 5 goals in his last 47 games. This year it's 2 in 49 games. He's not overly old, but has a ton of miles passing 1200 games this year (incredible accomplishment). They've put him in bad spots that he has no business being in. You have a younger version of Zubrus that you traded for last year (I thought for the purpose of upgrading Zubrus' role). Instead until two games ago, Ruutu was not even given a look above Zubrus on the depth chart.

 

Zubrus is no longer versatile. Lou got one thing right. It is unfair to be playing Zubrus in so many different spots.

 

 

It's called old age or too many miles. It's okay, but somebody in the organization better fvcking realize it.

 

Re:  Zubrus' 1200+ games, it's amazing when you also consider that he missed his fair share of games before he became a Devil.  He never managed to play all 82 games in a regular season until signed here...then did it four times (and 79 GP in another season).  He's now in the Top 100 on the All-Time GP list.

 

I'm curious to see if Lou and Zubes work out some sort of arrangement, where Dainius basically stops playing after it becomes obvious at about the 10-game mark next season that he really has nothing left, no matter how he's used.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Neb00rs]

The one thing that really has to be said at this point is that it looks like it is settled that not forfeiting the 2011-12 pick was a mistake. A 29th & 30th overall pick does not surpass one 11th overall pick. 

 

At least a handful of the following players are bound to be much better than Quenneville or Matteau. And I don't mean to say much by that.

 

11 Kevin Fiala 
12 Brendan Perlini 
13 Jakub Vrana 
14 Julius Honka 
15 Dylan Larkin
16 Sonny Milano  
17 Travis Sanheim 
18 Alex Tuch 
19 Anthony DeAngelo 
20 Nick Schmaltz
21 Robby Fabbri
22 Kasperi Kapanen 
23 Conner Bleackley 
24 Jared McCann 
25 David Pastrnak 
26 Nikita Scherbak 
27 Nikolay Goldobin 
28 Joshua Ho-Sang 
29 Adrian Kempe 

Edited February 19, 2015 by Neb00rs

[Triumph]

Quennville and Matteau are one possible future.  You can't evaluate things like this.  In addition, some of those guys won't look very good in 2 years also.

[HellOnICE]

Hindsight is ridiculous. I'm sorry. It's easy to piss and moan now about this decision. If I am Lou I would've done the samething coming off a finals appearance. 

[SterioDesign]

The one thing that really has to be said at this point is that it looks like it is settled that not forfeiting the 2011-12 pick was a mistake. A 29th & 30th overall pick does not surpass one 11th overall pick. 

 

At least a handful of the following players are bound to be much better than Quenneville or Matteau. And I don't mean to say much by that.

 

11 Kevin Fiala 

12 Brendan Perlini 

13 Jakub Vrana 

14 Julius Honka 

15 Dylan Larkin

16 Sonny Milano  

17 Travis Sanheim 

18 Alex Tuch 

19 Anthony DeAngelo 

20 Nick Schmaltz

21 Robby Fabbri

22 Kasperi Kapanen 

23 Conner Bleackley 

24 Jared McCann 

25 David Pastrnak 

26 Nikita Scherbak 

27 Nikolay Goldobin 

28 Joshua Ho-Sang 

29 Adrian Kempe 

 

im with you there. and of course now it's one of those guys vs Matteau AND Quenneville. But Quenneville was not "supposed" to be there and that's not Lou that's the owner getting the pick back. So he may have got away with it, but thats like crossing the road without looking and not getting run over, it worked but doesnt mean it was the thing to do or smart cause you didnt get consequences.

 

That been said, we all understand and it's not unfair to think that a 29th pick from 2012 could be ready sooner than a 2014 11th pick. With drafting you simply never know.

 

But at the end of the day and in my opinion (in cases like this it all comes down to values and opinions really) it was a risky move to not give up an "established" position (and the best position you'd want to give up if you ever had to give one up) and gamble that you'll have to give up on an "unestablished value". IMO you stay careful cause God knows what could happen and you certainly don't want to give up a good pick.

 

Like if... say you buy 4 scratching tickets, you scratch one and win $2... and for some weird reason you owed a scratch ticket to your buddy and you can give him THAT one that you know only got you $2. Why in hell would you risk giving him one of the other that could win more money? Of course it's a gamble but at least there you know your biggest loss will be $2 which is pretty fair. Anyways... you guys know what i mean.

Edited February 20, 2015 by SterioDesign

[Neb00rs]

Hindsight is ridiculous. I'm sorry. It's easy to piss and moan now about this decision. If I am Lou I would've done the samething coming off a finals appearance. 

 

What? Based on what? At the time everyone was like WTF? I am not pissing and moaning about it. I am saying that it now doesn't look like the best decision. By the way saying "hindsight is ridiculous" makes almost no sense here, grammatically or contextually. On this board we talk about things that have happened, are happening, and will happen. This fits into the first category. There are times when 'hindsight 20/20' is relevant to use, but not here, where I am referring to something at the time that didn't seem like the best decision. 

Edited February 20, 2015 by Neb00rs

[NJDevs4978]

Hindsight is ridiculous. I'm sorry. It's easy to piss and moan now about this decision. If I am Lou I would've done the samething coming off a finals appearance. 

 

Meaning you would have kept the #29 pick?  There's no hindsight involved, that was HIGHLY contreversial at the time.  It was embarassing and the highlight of hubris to lose the #10 pick two years after we kept #29.  Getting a #30 pick back was a consolation prize I'm sorry even Lou couldn't have bet on that happening.  And even that unexpected 'best' case scenario is debatable whether you'd rather have two low firsts or one high first.

Edited February 20, 2015 by NJDevs4978

[Neb00rs]

Meaning you would have kept the #29 pick?  There's no hindsight involved, that was HIGHLY contreversial at the time.  It was embarassing and the highlight of hubris to lose the #10 pick two years after we kept #29.  Getting the #30 pick back was a consolation prize I'm sorry even Lou couldn't have bet on that happening.  And even that unexpected 'best' case scenario is debatable whether you'd rather have two low firsts or one high first.

 

I could NOT have said it better myself (and did not).

[HellOnICE]

I would've kept the pick. Yes, I would've looked at my team, the prospects, etc...and said - chances are we are in the playoffs in two years - so we're looking at a 18th or higher pick in 2014. Would I rather have the 29th pick today or the 18th pick two years from now given my team lacks in forward prospects, etc. Yes. I would've. How much difference is the 18th to 29th pick usually, and I don't know how scouting works - but I assume they know the strength of draft two years out? 2014 could've been a weak year and they could've figured it out. OR perhaps Lou did see this pick resinstatement down the line, we don't know private conversations between Lou and Gary.

 

 

 

It's a risk that backfired but only because of what fell apart between now and then. Lou couldn't have forseen both Kovy and Parise leaving. I think we are a playoff team if Kovy is around. 

 

 

It's easy to sit here and now and go IT WAS THE 11th PICK! or whatever...because at the time it was just a pick down the line.

 

The wise man once said - "you can only make decisions based on what's in front of you." 

 

I'll harp on Lou for other stuff, but not this one.

Edited February 20, 2015 by HellOnICE

[SterioDesign]

I would've kept the pick. Yes, I would've looked at my team, the prospects, etc...and said - chances are we are in the playoffs in two years - so we're looking at a 18th or higher pick in 2014. Would I rather have the 29th pick today or the 18th pick two years from now given my team lacks in forward prospects, etc. Yes. I would've. How much difference is the 18th to 29th pick usually, and I don't know how scouting works - but I assume they know the strength of draft two years out? 2014 could've been a weak year and they could've figured it out. OR perhaps Lou did see this pick resinstatement down the line, we don't know private conversations between Lou and Gary.

 

It's a risk that backfired but only because of what fell apart between now and then. Lou couldn't have forseen both Kovy and Parise leaving. I think we are a playoff team if Kovy is around. 

 

It's easy to sit here and now and go IT WAS THE 11th PICK! or whatever...because at the time it was just a pick down the line.

 

The wise man once said - "you can only make decisions based on what's in front of you." 

 

I'll harp on Lou for other stuff, but not this one.

 

your "wize man" wouldnt agree with what Lou did.  "you can only make decisions based on what's in front of you."

 

Again read my post above with the scratching ticket example, if you have to lose an asset within the next 4 years why would you gamble away a known value that is the lowest and best case scenario and risk losing an unknown asset that could be way more valuable. That KNOWN VALUE is the one and only thing Lou had to work with. That's blindfolded gambling. You always try to put the chances on your side to get the best out of something OR not lose too much. Thats really not what Lou is doing.

 

No one is here saying Lou had to pick between 29th and 11th pick from 2 years later. No one. But still at that time and with what Lou had to work with (and in 2012 our prospect pool was still terrible if not worst than it is now)

 

But i can't see why you guys don't see the trend here. Lou is like that with evvvvvvverything, he's pushing the limit and he's acting incredible stubborn in every single scenarios. Holding on to coaches too long til its too late, holding on to players at the deadline when we don't have a contending team and losing them, holding on to the 29th pick, holding on to old over the hill players over youngsters... it's definitely a theme here.

Edited February 20, 2015 by SterioDesign

[vadvlfan]

The one thing that really has to be said at this point is that it looks like it is settled that not forfeiting the 2011-12 pick was a mistake. A 29th & 30th overall pick does not surpass one 11th overall pick. 

 

At least a handful of the following players are bound to be much better than Quenneville or Matteau. And I don't mean to say much by that.

 

11 Kevin Fiala 

12 Brendan Perlini 

13 Jakub Vrana 

14 Julius Honka 

15 Dylan Larkin

16 Sonny Milano  

17 Travis Sanheim 

18 Alex Tuch 

19 Anthony DeAngelo 

20 Nick Schmaltz

21 Robby Fabbri

22 Kasperi Kapanen 

23 Conner Bleackley 

24 Jared McCann 

25 David Pastrnak 

26 Nikita Scherbak 

27 Nikolay Goldobin 

28 Joshua Ho-Sang 

29 Adrian Kempe 

Good thing Lou didnt give up on Matteau" draft'! Not sure I get your point, all these guys were gone. Also, why are folks judging Quenville entirely on his points in Jr? He just might be an excellent pro. We were all certain Reid Boucher (judging by his Jr. Numbers) would be great. How's that working out for ya? i wish would've went for barbashev (sp?) but cest l vie"say the old folks goes to show you never can tell

[mouse]

I would've kept the pick. Yes, I would've looked at my team, the prospects, etc...and said - chances are we are in the playoffs in two years - so we're looking at a 18th or higher pick in 2014. Would I rather have the 29th pick today or the 18th pick two years from now given my team lacks in forward prospects, etc. Yes. I would've. How much difference is the 18th to 29th pick usually, and I don't know how scouting works - but I assume they know the strength of draft two years out? 2014 could've been a weak year and they could've figured it out. OR perhaps Lou did see this pick resinstatement down the line, we don't know private conversations between Lou and Gary.

 

 

 

It's a risk that backfired but only because of what fell apart between now and then. Lou couldn't have forseen both Kovy and Parise leaving. I think we are a playoff team if Kovy is around. 

 

 

It's easy to sit here and now and go IT WAS THE 11th PICK! or whatever...because at the time it was just a pick down the line.

 

The wise man once said - "you can only make decisions based on what's in front of you." 

 

I'll harp on Lou for other stuff, but not this one.

Unless you're expecting to keep making he finals, which no one, even the most optimistic fan, would do, it's stupid to keep the 29, unless you're sure that draft is so deep you'll get a big time player that late. We felt it wasn't then, we see evidence of that now. Very few people agreed with Lou keeping that pick. Even fewer do now.

[DevsMan84]

Good thing Lou didnt give up on Matteau" draft'! Not sure I get your point, all these guys were gone. Also, why are folks judging Quenville entirely on his points in Jr? He just might be an excellent pro. We were all certain Reid Boucher (judging by his Jr. Numbers) would be great. How's that working out for ya? i wish would've went for barbashev (sp?) but cest l vie"say the old folks goes to show you never can tell

 

Well to be fair, the ones who were predicting Boucher to be great after that monster season he had in juniors were more of the casual fans who only look at the goals, assists and points stats.  They didn't factor in that he was an overager (from what I remember he was, but perhaps I am mistaken) and that the league he was doing it in is very well known as a huge scoring league.  At this point if Boucher turns into a serviceable 3rd liner that's a big win for us.

[Devil Dan 56]

Well to be fair, the ones who were predicting Boucher to be great after that monster season he had in juniors were more of the casual fans who only look at the goals, assists and points stats. They didn't factor in that he was an overager (from what I remember he was, but perhaps I am mistaken) and that the league he was doing it in is very well known as a huge scoring league. At this point if Boucher turns into a serviceable 3rd liner that's a big win for us.

Coming out of the 4th round, I would be fine with that. Maybe with the right line mates he can put up some offense, and snipe a few on the pp

[NJDfan1711]

What? Based on what? At the time everyone was like WTF? I am not pissing and moaning about it. I am saying that it now doesn't look like the best decision. By the way saying "hindsight is ridiculous" makes almost no sense here, grammatically or contextually. On this board we talk about things that have happened, are happening, and will happen. This fits into the first category. There are times when 'hindsight 20/20' is relevant to use, but not here, where I am referring to something at the time that didn't seem like the best decision. 

I believe his point is that at the time it DID look like the best decision, and still could be argued now, even WITH hindsight. 

[Triumph]

Unless you're expecting to keep making he finals, which no one, even the most optimistic fan, would do, it's stupid to keep the 29, unless you're sure that draft is so deep you'll get a big time player that late. We felt it wasn't then, we see evidence of that now. Very few people agreed with Lou keeping that pick. Even fewer do now.

 

This would be true if a 2012 pick were worth the same as a 2014 pick.  It's not, not in 2012.

[mouse]

This would be true if a 2012 pick were worth the same as a 2014 pick.  It's not, not in 2012.

WAs the 2012 draft that deep?

[NewarkDevil5]

This would be true if a 2012 pick were worth the same as a 2014 pick.  It's not, not in 2012.

 

I quess my question to you is whether you believe that Matteau is worth the difference between Quenneville and one of Jakub Vrana, Brendan Perlini or Dylan Larkin. I'm not sure of the answer to that question myself.

[NJDevs4978]

He just means because it's two years sooner.

Even if you assume the Devils were going to be a playoff team and draft 16-20 there's always the chance a major injury screws that up. Like losing Zach in 2010 or Kovy during the short season. And 16 to 29 is a bigger difference than its made out to be. We got Zach at like 17 but our later round firsts have been highly questionable at best.

Either way it wasn't worth it to hit on a 20 in blackjack hoping you get something similar in the next hand if you don't get an ace this time.

Edited February 20, 2015 by NJDevs4978

[Daniel]

WAs the 2012 draft that deep?

 

From what you hear, Lou was hoping that Subban or Vasilevsky would have still been available at 29, in which case the gamble would have paid off as both have looked very good so far.

 

Otherwise, I disagree with looking at draft picks like time value of money.  Draft order -- i.e. how good a team will be in the next couple of years -- is not a random phenomenon, and you at least have to get a sense of whether the team is declining, getting better or staying the same, which is something that a non-computer GM should look at.  And at the end of the season (which is when the Devils had to decide to give up a pick in any particular year) you have a pretty good idea of who will be available when you're picking and you have to make a judgment call about how good you think that set of players will end up being.  You also have a rough idea of the types of players that will be available in the next year or so.