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LittleBallofHate

2018 Offseason Thread

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53 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Unless Ray, et al. really thinks that DuClair or these second tier free agents have some serious upside that no other team in the league sees, I hope not.  We have plenty of forward depth that is young and controllable that we don’t need fillers in free agency, or the need go after reclamation projects like DuClair or Yakupov.  

What the team needs is more impact players.  And I’m hopeful that Ray is trying to obtain them.  For all his talk about not going crazy on free agents, people forget something else he said that the window for most teams to compete for a Cup, especially if you don’t have a McDavid or Crosby, is narrower than people think, so you can’t continue to rely on the draft.  

I see our window as starting still a year or two away. Long term we do need to hunt for an impact dman though. 

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7 hours ago, SS-SS said:

I disagree. I doubt that a lot of the things he is accused of would be a problem if he wasn't black. It's not the main problem, but it was an underlying one that I personally could feel in a lot of those ''old-fashioned'' guys like Tremblay, Bergeron, and others every time I saw them speaking about him. Every time they target a player they obviously accuse him of stupid things, but Subban's case was the worse I saw. Of course, nobody would come out and straight up say ''because he's black'', but IMHO it was there and detectable in many of their tirades about him.

I mean at some point, when you constantly accuse somebody of being a bad team player, but the majority of your complaints about the guy is either backed by no arguments at all or by very very retarded ones then what's going on? (At least with somebody like Galchenyuk they came up with some half-assed journalist stories that had a hint of credibility despite being retarded..but Subban? It was a free for all. You could say anything without backing any of your stuff with evidence or logic and they would fire up the torches and go to town on him).

They would sh!t on him for being fiery on the ice and ''too shiny'' because he somehow celebrates a goal with a lot of emotions (bc he just wants to win) and then turn around and tell us the problem with this team is that it needs a tough and competitive attitude. 

I mean let's just be clear. The organization itself didn't display any racist attitude, It was just the journos, but this club has a very very low breaking point once the media starts complaining about something regardless of what it is and if they should listen to them or not. Inside a couple of months, you will notice the effect of the media crap on the team and usually inside a year or two the player is gone.  

Ps: Here we are two years after the trade. What's up with P.K. in Nashville? Apart from the mouthwash thing in the final last year, I don't think I've heard anything negative about him and while I don't know personally any Predators fans it seems like they love him down here. I don't think the Preds fans would change a thing about that trade if they could go back in time. 

Also, just make a couple of Google searches about Tremblay (guy who was the most vocal about Subban and the same retard that drove Patrick Roy out of Mtl and into Colorado). The general consensus on forums and comment sections about the guy is that he's a racist. That's how people read into his comments. The same thing could be said about at least a couple of other leaders of the Subban crusade. 

Well see, im surprised you haven't seen and catch on everything im about to say cause you live in Quebec. 

1- Subban was clearly getting on his teammate's nerves with his me first attitude. He was called out by many to the media, called out by other players too. Markov has always been vocal about struggling to keep him in line (i remember that one time PK threw his jersey on the floor and Markov stopped his interview to tell him it was the last time he was telling him to respect the jersey or something). You could see it on the ice during games (either guys looking to the ceiling after he'd do something, rolling their eyes, shaking their heads. Hell he fought with like 5-6 teammates during practices. I get that it's happening once in awhile but that many times and with that many different guys? Hell he fought Plekanec. PLEKANEC !!!! Plus all the events he'd put up in MTL it's been reported that not a single teammate would ever show up. Plus how often he started sh!t just to start a brawl that his linemates had to drop their gloves or wtv while he was skating away laughing. That doesn't get you browny points from your teammates. Once i remember the club was struggling to get him to play the right way, he'd turn the puck over all the time and get bad penalties. But they went to overtime and he scored the winner with a slapper and i remember seeing the veterans on the team being kind of "oh christ of course", and they didn't even go see him they just went straight to the locker room. Sure some may say that they are the sh!theads but again, having being part of teams with guys like that, you're trying to be hard on them so that they learn but then they go and win the game and get all the credits even though they did everything wrong the whole game. You don't learn that way. It's basically like when you're trying to discipline your kids... but then they go see grandma and she tells them that they did nothing wrong and that you're wrong to discipline them.

here's a quote from Gallagher: "But, like I said, I don't know why we're talking about him. That's kind of what he wants. He came in here and tried to make it about P.K. Subban, which is what he does. You can let him talk about himself all night. I'm sure he'll give you guys enough lines."

every damn signs is pointing out that they are incredibly fed up with him seeing himself bigger than the team and making everything about him.

2- Every coach he had in MTL was struggling to handle him. I forgot which one it was but once Subban turned the puck over AGAIN and they got scored on, when he got to the bench the coach went to give him a talk and Subban was talking back to him arguing like he didn't do anything wrong. Also once Carboneau said on the antichambre that what's hard with PK is that on game night you never know what you're going to get with him. That you're getting PK playing for MTL or PK playing for PK. What was complicated is that MTL's defence was generally very bad and they needed Subban on the ice and he knew that so it's not like you could bench him or put him in the stands, he had the upper hand. Which is helping him in Nashville as he's not THE guy so he doesn't have as much control. 

3- Also i remember the team asking him to wear his MTL Canadian gear for post-game interviews. Yet he wouldn't listen and keep putting on his own brand gear. And that's again just one more t hing that adds up to the claim that Subban always saw himself bigger than the team. That does not do well in a locker room.

4- He's an adorable ass kisser too. He has the fans and the media in his pocket with his personality and he knows exactly what he's doing, everything he does is to boost his character. When he was holding out with his contract, he tweeted to the fans saying he missed them and that he hoped they could reach a deal soon. And sure enough, the fans stormed on social media to put pressure on the team to re-sign him at any cost. 

He's clearly a fun and funny guy to hang out with off the ice, i never said he's a bad person or a jerk. But the fact that some people can't see how a huge personality like that and being sooooo egomaniac doesn't translate well in a "team first environment" i simply don't get it. But maybe unless you actually played and interacted with someone like that on your team that you dont really get it, i really dont know how people can't see that.

and see that not a single point i brought up is related to his skin colour. None. He could be Kris Letang's twin brother. With that personality he would have got in the same trouble. 

And yes he gave money to kids and he's doing all those fun things for the medias and the league. That also fit with everything i said that he wants all the attention and to be loved by the fans. Doesnt change anything that he's too self centered in a locker room and that it can get on his teammates nerves.

 

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If he was Kris Letang's brother, they also would've run him out of Montreal because the fans up there can't see talent and have no idea what a great hockey player looks like in 2018.  But his being black certainly did not help one bit.  Put a target on his back that he couldn't ever get off.

Now they can all be one another's friends while they lose 50 games a year.  It's a real great team they're building up there.  

Also, not for nothing, but 'is player who doesn't belong to the racial majority playing for [self] or playing for [team]' is asked of a huge portion of non-white players and asked of very few white players across North American sports.   The white players who are confronted with this are by and large European NHLers, because they also don't belong to the ruling class of the jockocracy.

Edited by Triumph
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He seems well liked by his Nashville teammates from the quick Google search I did and I know the fans love him there too. It really sounds like Montreal being Montreal, players and fans alike. It's the same place that chased away one of the greatest goalies ever too lol

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7 hours ago, SterioDesign said:

Well see, im surprised you haven't seen and catch on everything im about to say cause you live in Quebec. 

1- Subban was clearly getting on his teammate's nerves with his me first attitude. He was called out by many to the media, called out by other players too. Markov has always been vocal about struggling to keep him in line (i remember that one time PK threw his jersey on the floor and Markov stopped his interview to tell him it was the last time he was telling him to respect the jersey or something). You could see it on the ice during games (either guys looking to the ceiling after he'd do something, rolling their eyes, shaking their heads. Hell he fought with like 5-6 teammates during practices. I get that it's happening once in awhile but that many times and with that many different guys? Hell he fought Plekanec. PLEKANEC !!!! Plus all the events he'd put up in MTL it's been reported that not a single teammate would ever show up. Plus how often he started sh!t just to start a brawl that his linemates had to drop their gloves or wtv while he was skating away laughing. That doesn't get you browny points from your teammates. Once i remember the club was struggling to get him to play the right way, he'd turn the puck over all the time and get bad penalties. But they went to overtime and he scored the winner with a slapper and i remember seeing the veterans on the team being kind of "oh christ of course", and they didn't even go see him they just went straight to the locker room. Sure some may say that they are the sh!theads but again, having being part of teams with guys like that, you're trying to be hard on them so that they learn but then they go and win the game and get all the credits even though they did everything wrong the whole game. You don't learn that way. It's basically like when you're trying to discipline your kids... but then they go see grandma and she tells them that they did nothing wrong and that you're wrong to discipline them.

here's a quote from Gallagher: "But, like I said, I don't know why we're talking about him. That's kind of what he wants. He came in here and tried to make it about P.K. Subban, which is what he does. You can let him talk about himself all night. I'm sure he'll give you guys enough lines."

every damn signs is pointing out that they are incredibly fed up with him seeing himself bigger than the team and making everything about him.

2- Every coach he had in MTL was struggling to handle him. I forgot which one it was but once Subban turned the puck over AGAIN and they got scored on, when he got to the bench the coach went to give him a talk and Subban was talking back to him arguing like he didn't do anything wrong. Also once Carboneau said on the antichambre that what's hard with PK is that on game night you never know what you're going to get with him. That you're getting PK playing for MTL or PK playing for PK. What was complicated is that MTL's defence was generally very bad and they needed Subban on the ice and he knew that so it's not like you could bench him or put him in the stands, he had the upper hand. Which is helping him in Nashville as he's not THE guy so he doesn't have as much control. 

3- Also i remember the team asking him to wear his MTL Canadian gear for post-game interviews. Yet he wouldn't listen and keep putting on his own brand gear. And that's again just one more t hing that adds up to the claim that Subban always saw himself bigger than the team. That does not do well in a locker room.

4- He's an adorable ass kisser too. He has the fans and the media in his pocket with his personality and he knows exactly what he's doing, everything he does is to boost his character. When he was holding out with his contract, he tweeted to the fans saying he missed them and that he hoped they could reach a deal soon. And sure enough, the fans stormed on social media to put pressure on the team to re-sign him at any cost. 

He's clearly a fun and funny guy to hang out with off the ice, i never said he's a bad person or a jerk. But the fact that some people can't see how a huge personality like that and being sooooo egomaniac doesn't translate well in a "team first environment" i simply don't get it. But maybe unless you actually played and interacted with someone like that on your team that you dont really get it, i really dont know how people can't see that.

and see that not a single point i brought up is related to his skin colour. None. He could be Kris Letang's twin brother. With that personality he would have got in the same trouble. 

And yes he gave money to kids and he's doing all those fun things for the medias and the league. That also fit with everything i said that he wants all the attention and to be loved by the fans. Doesnt change anything that he's too self centered in a locker room and that it can get on his teammates nerves.

 

I'm not saying you are wrong and that the guy is a saint, but I disagree on most of these points. Sure some of the points you made got on the nerves of some people at the club, some of the fans and some of the media, but that is because Mtl became a ''cryhouse'' over the years. 

That the guy's active on social media and wears his own hat/gear during post-match interviews are two points I don't think any other market in the league would even notice let alone cry about it as if he's running away with the livelihood of the club or something. 

About the coaching staff finding him difficult to manage. Is he suddenly a different player now that he is Nashville? I'm willing to blindly say for argument's sake that he somehow became more manageable even tho I think he's essentially the same guy. What is the role of a Hockey club once you draft a superstar like this guy who's a bit on the shiny side? You either manage him in order to make the most out of him or you treat him as an enemy within the team and watch yourself lose time, money and the rest of the locker room. I remember Ovechkin being quite the flashy player (on ice), but the Caps let him be who he is and do his explosive celebrations and all. Paid off in the end. P.K particularly seemed to have a good relation with Price. These two guys right there were 75% of the team. If some softies in the locker room can't handle that P.K is flashy, celebrates too hard or is active on social media then you flush them out and build a real team around your core elements instead of shipping your core players out and finding yourself with a team essentially composed of lame 3rd and 4th liners that were once pissed at P.K Subban, playing your top two lines. If it so happens that your top scorer (Pacioretty) is one of those guys that couldn't stand him (according to what the journos used to say) for these soft reasons then you make a decision about whether you keep P.K or Pacioretty. Mtl made that decision and we now know it was the wrong one. 

I'm calling these reasons you listed soft ones (I know these are not your personal opinion, but what we kept on hearing through the media here) because these were all either manageable or things that you only hear complaints about in Montreal. The guy didn't go out to party the day before games, wasn't caught doing something stupid, didn't go out on the ice one time without giving his 110%, didn't show up at camp out of shape or something like that. He snapped Instagram photos and did a knee slide after scoring a goal? That's the types of things you completely destroyed the club over inside of two years? 

 Talking about the turnovers he used to give. I watched many of these games. He produced these turnovers because of his high energy and risk-taking playing style on the ice, but the one thing Mtl fans and media always fail to mention when they talk about those is that at times P.K was essentially the only guy on this team that could turn around a game and if he didn't try these spectacular things the club would've ended up losing more games and they care to admit. Typical bullsh!t would be MTL down 3-1 with 7 minutes to go in the 3RD period with the whole team completely asleep and P.K picks the puck in his zone, skates all the way up to the opposition's end (literally the whole arena wakes up and react), he loses the puck and they concede the 4th. They come out the next day with a description of the events that would make you think the Habs lost the game because of him and that they were in for a comeback if it wasn't for P.K's mistake.

His playing style gave the Habs so many wins, won them a series against Boston and sold tickets like hot buns. He was the superstar they had been waiting for. Any other team would've adapted and made sure that when they're superstar offensive D-man goes up the rink for a spectacular carry of the puck on the length of the ice he would be covered or given good support, but nope, in MTL they preferred ripping him a new one for being too good and trade him. 

Here we are two years after the trade. Subban made the SC final on his first year at Nashville, he's part of one of the best teams in the league, loved by Nashville fans. All of this while essentially remaining the same guy. In the meantime, the Habs have become one of the worst teams in the league. The offense and the defense is a complete mess. They lost their 3rd overall draft pick for a guy who scored 9 goals last season including 4 empty-netters and they are going to lose their captain who also happens to be their best offensive draft pick in decades for probably less than 50% of his real value. But hey, these lame 3rd and 4th liners that now compose MTL top two lines have been accommodated and no longer have to fear the flashy black guy who snapped pictures for Instagram and wore hats with his name on it. 

 

Edited by SS-SS

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8 hours ago, Daniel said:

Unless Ray, et al. really thinks that DuClair or these second tier free agents have some serious upside that no other team in the league sees, I hope not.  We have plenty of forward depth that is young and controllable that we don’t need fillers in free agency, or the need go after reclamation projects like DuClair or Yakupov.  

What the team needs is more impact players.  And I’m hopeful that Ray is trying to obtain them.  For all his talk about not going crazy on free agents, people forget something else he said that the window for most teams to compete for a Cup, especially if you don’t have a McDavid or Crosby, is narrower than people think, so you can’t continue to rely on the draft.  

Agreed as to most of this. My order would be:

1. Get impact players, F or D.

2. If that fails, get 2nd tier D men.

3. Figure out what kind of forwards we’ll have left without Maroon, Stafford and Hayes; sign at least one 2nd tier forward to fill in the gap in the event that the young guns are not yet ready to step in. 

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7 hours ago, Antiquated Colorado Rockie said:

I see our window as starting still a year or two away. Long term we do need to hunt for an impact dman though. 

That’s fine, but being competitive and making the playoffs, etc. will make us a more attractive landing place for said impact dman. Still need the best team possible in the ice every year. 

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This one getting thrown around on HFBoards, thoughts?

Tampa: Tyler Johnson, Ryan Callahan, Dotchin

for

New Jersey: McLeod

Addresses our need at 2C.  Can either buyout Callahan or slot him in on the 4th line.  Dotchin probably competes for the bottom pairing, especially if we do not replace Moore via free agency.

Seeing that piece of sh!t Callahan in a Devils jersey is almost enough to make me say "no" but I think the value is there.

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25 minutes ago, Devilsfan118 said:

This one getting thrown around on HFBoards, thoughts?

Tampa: Tyler Johnson, Ryan Callahan, Dotchin

for

New Jersey: McLeod

Addresses our need at 2C.  Can either buyout Callahan or slot him in on the 4th line.  Dotchin probably competes for the bottom pairing, especially if we do not replace Moore via free agency.

Seeing that piece of sh!t Callahan in a Devils jersey is almost enough to make me say "no" but I think the value is there.

Adding Johnson who when he plays a full season is pretty much a lock for 20+ goals would certainly be tempting, but it would kind of suck to lose McLeod without ever having seen him in the NHL. 

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I can't imagine that McLeod brings back 3 players. If he does, then I say pass on that and let him start the season in the NHL. If he's that good, we could use him. 

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21 minutes ago, mfitz804 said:

I can't imagine that McLeod brings back 3 players. If he does, then I say pass on that and let him start the season in the NHL. If he's that good, we could use him. 

Agreed and I don't want Callahan on our team either and I'm pretty sure he has a modified no trade clause so I don't imagine we are one of the teams on his list anyway. 

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2 minutes ago, Satans Hockey said:

Agreed and I don't want Callahan on our team either and I'm pretty sure he has a modified no trade clause so I don't imagine we are one of the teams on his list anyway. 

Timing is tricky, as I understand it.

Callahan's NMC expires on 7/1, and Tyler Johnson's NTC kicks in on 7/1.  So... those logistics alone probably kill any potential deal.

I guess I'm not entirely sold on McLeod being a bona fide top-6 guy, but here's hoping he shows something in camp this year.

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3 hours ago, Devilsfan118 said:

This one getting thrown around on HFBoards, thoughts?

Tampa: Tyler Johnson, Ryan Callahan, Dotchin

for

New Jersey: McLeod

Addresses our need at 2C.  Can either buyout Callahan or slot him in on the 4th line.  Dotchin probably competes for the bottom pairing, especially if we do not replace Moore via free agency.

Seeing that piece of sh!t Callahan in a Devils jersey is almost enough to make me say "no" but I think the value is there.

The only reason that Tampa makes this trade is if they want the cap room for Tavares, and I'm not helping them do it for someone like Tyler Johnson by himself, much less having to take on a negative asset like Ryan Callahan.  Johnson's a good player, but he does not help the Devils become an excellent team.  He's also turning 28, which is right around the time he could start to decline.

But beyond that, we should not be in the business of helping Tampa become a superteam.  We're in this to win a Cup.  It's very hard if not impossible to do when you'll have to play a team with Stamkos, Tavares, Kucharov, Hedman, and Point, and perhaps Ryan McDonogh to make it there. 

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13 hours ago, Daniel said:

Unless Ray, et al. really thinks that DuClair or these second tier free agents have some serious upside that no other team in the league sees, I hope not.  We have plenty of forward depth that is young and controllable that we don’t need fillers in free agency, or the need go after reclamation projects like DuClair or Yakupov.  

What the team needs is more impact players.  And I’m hopeful that Ray is trying to obtain them.  For all his talk about not going crazy on free agents, people forget something else he said that the window for most teams to compete for a Cup, especially if you don’t have a McDavid or Crosby, is narrower than people think, so you can’t continue to rely on the draft.  

I don't think bringing in a DuClair/Rieder/Sheahan blocks any of our young forward depth. We have Hayes, Grabner, Maroon, Gibbons, and Stafford to replace on the active roster. I think we need some second tier free agents and ones on the younger side would be my preference because if you get lucky you have a long term answer to fit in with the future. But I do agree that I will defer to the professional scouts on if any of these guys fit that mold. 

I do agree that the cup window is small, so filling holes now with potential long term solutions is a way to open it up. I see a "Hall as a star for the next 6 year" window then hopefully Nico overlaps that as a star and then can open a new window of his own as a top flight star.  

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This was retweeted by a few hockey people I follow so it's on the up & up... not sure why they'd want him - he's really not very good: 

Mark Madden‏ @MarkMaddenX

Defenseman Jack Johnson has agreed to a 5-yr deal w/the Penguins. Will become official Sunday when NHL free agency officially begins. For more, tune in to @1059theX .

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6 minutes ago, LittleBallofHate said:

This was retweeted by a few hockey people I follow so it's on the up & up... not sure why they'd want him - he's really not very good

Mark Madden‏ @MarkMaddenX

Defenseman Jack Johnson has agreed to a 5-yr deal w/the Penguins. Will become official Sunday when NHL free agency officially begins. For more, tune in to @1059theX .

Tri's mentioned that JJ hasn't been very good a number of times through the years...think he either posted actual numbers or links to numbers that weren't very flattering to Johnson IIRC.  Kinda makes one wonder who the Pens were bidding against to give him five years, and for potential decline years to boot.

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25 minutes ago, LittleBallofHate said:

This was retweeted by a few hockey people I follow so it's on the up & up... not sure why they'd want him - he's really not very good: 

Mark Madden‏ @MarkMaddenX

Defenseman Jack Johnson has agreed to a 5-yr deal w/the Penguins. Will become official Sunday when NHL free agency officially begins. For more, tune in to @1059theX .

How are these backdoor style negotiations possible? I thought you weren't allowed to speak to FAs until the FA period started on July 1st. 

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19 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Tri's mentioned that JJ hasn't been very good a number of times through the years...think he either posted actual numbers or links to numbers that weren't very flattering to Johnson IIRC.  Kinda makes one wonder who the Pens were bidding against to give him five years, and for potential decline years to boot.

Here's a Todd Cordell chart: 

 

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4 minutes ago, NJDevils1214 said:

How are these backdoor style negotiations possible? I thought you weren't allowed to speak to FAs until the FA period started on July 1st. 

They changed it last year I believe - starting one week prior to July 1, teams are allowed to talk with impending UFAs but they're not supposed to talk actual $/contracts until July 1... 

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18 hours ago, mfitz804 said:

If he was awful enough to sign for $1.5-2m, I might give him a year to prove himself. Guy still scored 27 goals last year. That’s more than anyone on our team aside from Hall. 

At that price, for one year, I’d be willing to chance it that the last 21 games with us were the anomaly. You could always waive him or whatever, nothing ventured nothing gained. 

But someone else will give him 2-3 years for more money, I’m sure. 

Right, with full training camp you maximize the your ROI to the fullest (assuming it’s at most 2 year deal)

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