2023-2024 Around The League thread

[Rob_Ottawa]

Chicago has boat loads of cap space so they inherit the dumping ground title

[Lateralous]

Posted just now

  1 hour ago, Nicomo said:

After all that Hellebuyck re-signs with WPG after all. 

Expand  

I never saw how this wasn't ultimately the only right decision for Hellebuyck.  I know there isn't a great pathway to winning a cup with the current state of the Jets but there's too much risk for a 30 year old goalie waiting another season to sign if there is this size offer on the table right now.    It wouldn't be unheard of for his game to start falling off this year.   If he didn't do it now, this might never be available to him again. 

[RizzMB30]

4 hours ago, Lateralous said:

 

Posted just now

  1 hour ago, Nicomo said:

After all that Hellebuyck re-signs with WPG after all. 

Expand  

I never saw how this wasn't ultimately the only right decision for Hellebuyck.  I know there isn't a great pathway to winning a cup with the current state of the Jets but there's too much risk for a 30 year old goalie waiting another season to sign if there is this size offer on the table right now.    It wouldn't be unheard of for his game to start falling off this year.   If he didn't do it now, this might never be available to him again. 

Gotta take what is available to you sometimes. Good for him. Not a very tradeable deal, but eventually he'll just get LTIR'd anyway. I think that's why some of these deals don't scare GMs really because they can abuse the sh!t out of the LTIR system. 

[Guadana]

8 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

OK, so Hellebuyck and Scheifele both stay in Winnipeg, 7 years each, for identical $8.5 million AAV cap hits.

Just glad it's not the Devils who gave that kind of money to Hellebuyck.  This contract will cover his Age 31-37 seasons (kicks in next season)...he should have about 500 regular season games under his belt by the time this extension begins.  That's a lot of mileage...he'll move up to about 78th on the all-time list, if he reaches 500 GP.  Exactly 16 goalies in the entire HISTORY of the NHL have played in over 800 games...so how much will Hellebuyck have in his tank?  And how many peak years does he have left?

 

Yeah. There are no good goalies after 32-33 in modern nhl. With 19 yo Nemec, 20 yo Luke, 21 yo Mercer and 22 yo Jack Devils have 10-14 years of potential contending window. There is no reason to invest in older goalie for having 2-3 good years out of his 30+ vss and then finding solution for this anchor and his 5 years of huge salary. And its not like bad older goalies are very movable. Gibson and Schneider are good examples. Bobrivsky played very well in recent play off, but that was the only real good performance from him with Florida. Most of thr time his deal was a problem. And still is. And he was better goalie then Hellebuyck.

And the more important thing - from 2019 there were only Vasilevsky who won something in the playoff and was really something as career goalie. Binnington,  Kuemper, Hill are average or even not good goalies with good play off. Holtz, who won in 2018, was done after his 28. Goalies are not overrated, but for now its better to have two okay to good goalies and really good depth with good defense. We have it. I believe Fitz wil trade goalie if Devils needs to. 

[NJDfan1711]

14 hours ago, Lateralous said:

 

Posted just now

  1 hour ago, Nicomo said:

After all that Hellebuyck re-signs with WPG after all. 

Expand  

I never saw how this wasn't ultimately the only right decision for Hellebuyck.  I know there isn't a great pathway to winning a cup with the current state of the Jets but there's too much risk for a 30 year old goalie waiting another season to sign if there is this size offer on the table right now.    It wouldn't be unheard of for his game to start falling off this year.   If he didn't do it now, this might never be available to him again. 

That seems like a really good deal for him. I'm curious if he gets more the first few years or is it evenly distributed over the 7 years? Personally I've never thought he's an amazing goalie - good, sure - but amazing?  not in my opinion, and I wouldn't wanna be paying him $8.5 per year when he's 35/36/37 years old.  I do expect him to decline within the next 2-3 seasons.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

39 minutes ago, NJDfan1711 said:

That seems like a really good deal for him. I'm curious if he gets more the first few years or is it evenly distributed over the 7 years? Personally I've never thought he's an amazing goalie - good, sure - but amazing?  not in my opinion, and I wouldn't wanna be paying him $8.5 per year when he's 35/36/37 years old.  I do expect him to decline within the next 2-3 seasons.

For both players, they're terrific deals.

The Jets, however, just became the Islanders West, in that they decided to tie up a lot of money to keep their team stuck in the "mushy middle" for MANY more years.  Just like the Isles, they'll need to nail a draft pick or two (basically find a superstar without having a top pick to work with) to even dream of getting over the hump.  

[2ELIAS6]

There’s no way helly is staying in wpg for 7 more years, he didn’t want to be there any longer to begin with. This was to have him locked up to a term for a sign and trade, not sure why no one is realizing this. 

[Guadana]

59 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

For both players, they're terrific deals.

The Jets, however, just became the Islanders West, in that they decided to tie up a lot of money to keep their team stuck in the "mushy middle" for MANY more years.  Just like the Isles, they'll need to nail a draft pick or two (basically find a superstar without having a top pick to work with) to even dream of getting over the hump.  

They have Perfetti and Lambert in their prospect pool. Even if I don't like some of them, they still have some different nhl potential. They trade Dubois pretty good. Islanders have mostly nothing. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Guadana

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

29 minutes ago, 2ELIAS6 said:

There’s no way helly is staying in wpg for 7 more years, he didn’t want to be there any longer to begin with. This was to have him locked up to a term for a sign and trade, not sure why no one is realizing this. 

Ok, first off, you know that it's not like a player never had a change of heart.  Not sure if you're old enough to remember, but when Scott Stevens was first awarded to the Devils as compensation for the Blues signing Brendan Shanahan as a Group 1 Free Agent, he was absolutely furious.  He initially refused to report to the team and wanted no part of the Devils or New Jersey...at the very least, it looked like he was going to try to force a trade.  But not only did he eventually show up, but he decided he was going to be a legitimately good soldier and not just go through the motions or do everything that he could to force Lou to move him.  And of course this is just one of MANY examples where a relationship that looked like it was permanently done somehow mended itself.  This sh!t DOES and CAN happen.

Also, not ONE report of this signing mentions anything about a sign-and-trade...if that was a possibility, you would have heard SOME mention of it, SOMEWHERE.  I think a lot of things factored into this re-signing...one being that most teams have smartened up enough to realize that signing an aging goalie to a LOT of years beyond 30 is not the best idea...no one was stepping up to deal assets for Hellebuyck AND then sign him to big money.  I'm guessing the Jets didn't have to go seven years for him (six might have gotten it done), but I'm guessing Cheveldayoff wanted to make the offer just sweet enough to keep Hellebuyck from insisting on testing the market...was Hellebuyck ever getting that kind of AAV over that many years?  I'd say definitely not.  So if no one really wanted to go with that kind of money OR term...who exactly wanted him in this kind of sign-and-trade?

For better or worse, as far as the Jets go, they're stuck with him for quite some time.  Maybe if he's still playing at peak form when he's 4-5 years into that deal, and the Jets clearly have no reason to keep him, maybe they can get out from under his contract then.  But this was not about a sign-and-trade.  The Jets decided to double-down on being pretty good for several more years, instead of attempting to take a step back to try to take steps forward in 2-3 years.  

Edited October 10, 2023 by Colorado Rockies 1976

[Satans Hockey]

5:30pm on a Tuesday is such a weird start time, I know it's Tampa and a lot of people retire to Florida but it's still really early for a weekday game unless people have off today for work down there or something else I don't know about? Lol

[2ELIAS6]

2 hours ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Ok, first off, you know that it's not like a player never had a change of heart.  Not sure if you're old enough to remember, but when Scott Stevens was first awarded to the Devils as compensation for the Blues signing Brendan Shanahan as a Group 1 Free Agent, he was absolutely furious.  He initially refused to report to the team and wanted no part of the Devils or New Jersey...at the very least, it looked like he was going to try to force a trade.  But not only did he eventually show up, but he decided he was going to be a legitimately good soldier and not just go through the motions or do everything that he could to force Lou to move him.  And of course this is just one of MANY examples where a relationship that looked like it was permanently done somehow mended itself.  This sh!t DOES and CAN happen.

Also, not ONE report of this signing mentions anything about a sign-and-trade...if that was a possibility, you would have heard SOME mention of it, SOMEWHERE.  I think a lot of things factored into this re-signing...one being that most teams have smartened up enough to realize that signing an aging goalie to a LOT of years beyond 30 is not the best idea...no one was stepping up to deal assets for Hellebuyck AND then sign him to big money.  I'm guessing the Jets didn't have to go seven years for him (six might have gotten it done), but I'm guessing Cheveldayoff wanted to make the offer just sweet enough to keep Hellebuyck from insisting on testing the market...was Hellebuyck ever getting that kind of AAV over that many years?  I'd say definitely not.  So if no one really wanted to go with that kind of money OR term...who exactly wanted him in this kind of sign-and-trade?

For better or worse, as far as the Jets go, they're stuck with him for quite some time.  Maybe if he's still playing at peak form when he's 4-5 years into that deal, and the Jets clearly have no reason to keep him, maybe they can get out from under his contract then.  But this was not about a sign-and-trade.  The Jets decided to double-down on being pretty good for several more years, instead of attempting to take a step back to try to take steps forward in 2-3 years.  

We’ll agree to disagree. He wanted to go somewhere he would have a chance to win and that’s definitely not the jets. We’ll see what happens

27 minutes ago, Satans Hockey said:

5:30pm on a Tuesday is such a weird start time, I know it's Tampa and a lot of people retire to Florida but it's still really early for a weekday game unless people have off today for work down there or something else I don't know about? Lol

I can’t wait to watch some meaningful hockey later, I don’t mind Tampa either. 

[Lateralous]

42 minutes ago, Satans Hockey said:

5:30pm on a Tuesday is such a weird start time, I know it's Tampa and a lot of people retire to Florida but it's still really early for a weekday game unless people have off today for work down there or something else I don't know about? Lol

It was done for TV.  They are having an opining night triple header and Crosby vs Bedard got prime time slot 

[aylbert]

51 minutes ago, 2ELIAS6 said:

We’ll agree to disagree. He wanted to go somewhere he would have a chance to win and that’s definitely not the jets. We’ll see what happens

He's no longer tradable with that contract.  If he was signed to a 3 year deal, I'd be on board with you, but 7?   No contender wants that contract...  and he cant really be dumped unless it's a market he wants given the first 3 years is NMC, followed by 4 years of a 10 team no-trade list.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

42 minutes ago, 2ELIAS6 said:

We’ll agree to disagree. He wanted to go somewhere he would have a chance to win and that’s definitely not the jets. We’ll see what happens

No reason to double down on this...you gotta see the flaws in your logic here.  The Jets are holding a press conference RIGHT NOW to announce the signings, with both players in house, with everyone smiling and happy that this got done, and both players talking about how much they now want to stay and are thrilled to remain Jets (even if they felt differently earlier) and are all-in.  Does this sound remotely like a "sign and trade" situation to you?  Again, NO ONE ELSE even reported such a scenario as ever being a possibility in this case.  

If Hellebuyck wanted out THAT badly, all he had to do was refuse to sign with the Jets no matter what, and he could've tested the market...freedom was only one season away.  How many legit contenders do you think are lining up to take on Hellebuyck for 8 years (if he was dealt just after signing this deal, assuming a sign and trade scenario had any merit at all.  He still has a year left on his current)?  Most of those teams have their own guys to pay.  And not all of those teams need a goalie to begin with.  

The Jets signed him to KEEP him, and Hellebuyck signed to STAY.  That's it.    

And I admit that I don't think the Jets should've done this; to recap, Hellebuyck is already entering his Age 30 season with 445 regular season GP under his belt.  I'm guessing he'll be over 500 if he stays healthy, just as his extension kicks in, in what will be his Age 31 season.  Going by the all-time GP leader list for goalies, what's a realistic "still in his prime" expectation, regarding his performance?  Maybe another 300 games?  Only 16 other goalies in the history of the NHL have managed over 800 GP, and obviously it's not like many of them reached that many still at or near the top of their games.  This has major blow-up potential...heaven forbid Hellebuyck goes through an early decline, say anywhere from his Age 32-34 seasons.

I'm all for not allocating insane amounts of money to a goalie.  Especially one that hasn't exactly notably raised his game in the playoffs, for the most part.  

 

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

3 hours ago, Guadana said:

They have Perfetti and Lambert in their prospect pool. Even if I don't like some of them, they still have some different nhl potential. They trade Dubois pretty good. Islanders have mostly nothing. 

They'll be more dynamic than the Isles for sure.  But still a mushy middle kind of team.  Maybe they get to a WCF if all breaks right (if Hellebuyck goes nuts), but I'll be stunned if they ever get to a SCF, unless somehow they nail it in their upcoming drafts.

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

22 minutes ago, aylbert said:

He's no longer tradable with that contract.  If he was signed to a 3 year deal, I'd be on board with you, but 7?   No contender wants that contract...  and he cant really be dumped unless it's a market he wants given the first 3 years is NMC, followed by 4 years of a 10 team no-trade list.

Yeah, this is a "We really REALLY want you to stay!" kind of contract.  It's just too prohibitive for anyone else to want to take on.  

[MadDog2020]

1 hour ago, 2ELIAS6 said:

We’ll agree to disagree. He wanted to go somewhere he would have a chance to win and that’s definitely not the jets. We’ll see what happens

That ship has sailed. Hellebuyck is locked into Winnipeg for seven years; as has been mentioned no one is going anywhere near that contract. Hope he bought a coat. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by MadDog2020

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

1 minute ago, MadDog2020 said:

That ship has sailed. Hellebuyck is locked into Winnipeg for seven years; as has been mentioned no one is going anywhere near that contract. Hope he bought a coat. 

Hellebuyck | 1-on-1 | Winnipeg Jets (nhl.com)

It's funny...this signing is clearly polarizing among Jets fans, from what I've seen them saying.  They're just as concerned about the AAV and term as anyone else.  

[MadDog2020]

1 hour ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

Hellebuyck | 1-on-1 | Winnipeg Jets (nhl.com)

It's funny...this signing is clearly polarizing among Jets fans, from what I've seen them saying.  They're just as concerned about the AAV and term as anyone else.  

And they should be. Signing a 30 year old goalie with lots of tread on the tires to a seven year deal is… questionable.

Edited October 10, 2023 by MadDog2020

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

4 minutes ago, MadDog2020 said:

And they should be. Signing a 30 year old goalie with lots of tread on the ties to a seven year deal is… questionable.

And of course he's signed for EIGHT years (still a year to go on his current deal).  They're locked into his age 30-37 seasons.  I could've understood it better if they were going deep into the playoffs every single year, or if the guy had already carried them to a Cup, but they've won ONE playoff round in their last four appearances, to the tune of an 8-15 record.  

[Lateralous]

4 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

And of course he's signed for EIGHT years (still a year to go on his current deal).  They're locked into his age 30-37 seasons.  I could've understood it better if they were going deep into the playoffs every single year, or if the guy had already carried them to a Cup, but they've won ONE playoff round in their last four appearances, to the tune of an 8-15 record.  

I agree, paying that amount of money to a 30 year goalie who didn't exactly backstop a dynasty is not great business. 

That being said, I think these signings go beyond the on ice impact for Winnipeg.  Going back to when they were eliminated from last springs playoffs, they were a sinking ship.  They ended the season with the coach openly calling out the effort of the players, lots of stories about the locker room being cancerous, etc.  They actually got out from the PLD situation by making a really good trade with the Kings and they jettisoned a well past his prime Blake Wheeler, neither of which hurts them too badly.  Locking these two up stabilizes the situation, especially if PLD and Wheeler were the main problem children which seems entirely plausible, and allows an Ownership group who does not want to rebuild, the ability to move forward as at least a fringe playoff team. 

This is definitely not a sign and trade.  I actually can't think of a sign and trade in any sport that wasn't announced simultaneously.     

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

4 minutes ago, Lateralous said:

I agree, paying that amount of money to a 30 year goalie who didn't exactly backstop a dynasty is not great business. 

That being said, I think these signings go beyond the on ice impact for Winnipeg.  Going back to when they were eliminated from last springs playoffs, they were a sinking ship.  They ended the season with the coach openly calling out the effort of the players, lots of stories about the locker room being cancerous, etc.  They actually got out from the PLD situation by making a really good trade with the Kings and they jettisoned a well past his prime Blake Wheeler, neither of which hurts them too badly.  Locking these two up stabilizes the situation, especially if PLD and Wheeler were the main problem children which seems entirely plausible, and allows an Ownership group who does not want to rebuild, the ability to move forward as at least a fringe playoff team. 

This is definitely not a sign and trade.  I actually can't think of a sign and trade in any sport that wasn't announced simultaneously.     

Winnipeg Jets Salary Cap, Draft Picks, and Player Contracts - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

I didn't realize it...part of the reason the Jets were in the position to sign both of these guys to contracts like this is because they don't really have any other "mega-deals" on their payroll right now.  They only have five of their current players signed for 2025-26.  Doesn't mean that I'd ever advocate signing a 30-year-old goalie to the deal that they did, but it looks a little less bad now, given their cap situation.  Their current overall situation isn't as "Islander-like" as I first thought...the Islanders are much more locked into their roster than the Jets are.  

Will be interesting to see how they tackle their RFA/UFA situations over the next couple of seasons.  And if they're able to land any big-name UFAs that make it to the market.

 

[MadDog2020]

23 minutes ago, Colorado Rockies 1976 said:

And if they're able to land any big-name UFAs that make it to the market.

That’s a problem; not many guys wanna live someplace where the average temperature is -450 lol

[Colorado Rockies 1976]

1 minute ago, MadDog2020 said:

That’s a problem; not many guys wanna live someplace where the average temperature is -450 lol

I was just about to wrap up my thoughts on the Jets; it relates in part to the above.

Since Cheveldayoff has decided to do a deep cannonball right into the "Win right fvcking NOW!" side of the pool, then he'd better be able to convince players to come to Winnipeg...because he needs to throw as much talent into the mix over the next 3-4 years as possible.  He's going to need to find ways to deal off some of his first-round picks and other assets for young, good-to-very-good soon-to-be RFAs who are on teams that can't afford (or don't want) to pay them...and then lock them up himself.  He's going to have be aggressive as fvck in trying to land big-name UFAs whenever he can.  It's a short window, with Scheifele and Hellebuyck likely to have only so many prime years left...if Cheveldayoff was willing to go all-in on those two, then he needs to continue to be all-in, even though it's likely to crash and burn down the line.    

[Henry Killinger]

Ducks Claim Johnston on Waivers from New York

https://www.nhl.com/ducks/news/ducks-claim-johnston-on-waivers-from-new-york

Minor, but kinda nice to see Ross out of the East.